Updated Points 13 NOv 2009

[passata_sotto]

Will someone else check their fencer's point standing esp if they are in the top of Y14 in any weapon or sex?
My son's point update, according to my calculations, is 131 points short and the two above him are both 69 points short as well.

[fencerwallet]

The weighted points won for cadet events did not translate to the same points added in for Y14.

[teacup]

The weighted points won for cadet events did not translate to the same points added in for Y14.

If you mean weighted points from cadet designated events, European local events, don't count for Y14 points.

[fencerwallet]

If you mean weighted points from cadet designated events, European local events, don't count for Y14 points.

I noticed that some of the NAC-B points awarded for the cadet list are not the same point totals placed on the Y14 list.

[flick n' roll]

When looking through the team point calculations, I noticed (at least for men's and women's foil) that there were some errors in the calculations. For both junior men's and women's foil, the results from the Div. 1 National Championships (aka Summer Nationals in Texas) are being included in the team calculations. However, in the championship selection criteria (link below) it never mentions that these points from Div. 1 are to be included in the team standings.

Can someone clarify whether or not this is true? Has the criteria been changed since 8/14/09 (the last date the criteria was updated)? If not, then the current team standings for junior men's/women's foil are incorrect.


http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/doc...ed_8.14.09.pdf

[passata_sotto]

What I could not figure out is how the points were calculated this time.

For instance, if my son had 459 points in Y14 prior to the NAC B and earned 136 in cadet and 170 in Y14 at the NAC B and was not on replacement points from last year's NAC B ( because he was silly and did not make it into the 32 ) then his new total for Y14 should be 765 and not 636 correct?

[teacup]

What I could not figure out is how the points were calculated this time.

For instance, if my son had 459 points in Y14 prior to the NAC B and earned 136 in cadet and 170 in Y14 at the NAC B and was not on replacement points from last year's NAC B ( because he was silly and did not make it into the 32 ) then his new total for Y14 should be 765 and not 636 correct?

Did you download the points and see how they are calculated?

[teacup]

When looking through the team point calculations, I noticed (at least for men's and women's foil) that there were some errors in the calculations. For both junior men's and women's foil, the results from the Div. 1 National Championships (aka Summer Nationals in Texas) are being included in the team calculations. However, in the championship selection criteria (link below) it never mentions that these points from Div. 1 are to be included in the team standings.

Can someone clarify whether or not this is true? Has the criteria been changed since 8/14/09 (the last date the criteria was updated)? If not, then the current team standings for junior men's/women's foil are incorrect.


http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/doc...ed_8.14.09.pdf

There are different criteria for rolling and team point calculations.
Events which are included in rolling points calculations, such as Div I, are in the Athlete's Handbook. (Unfortunately, this season's handbook has not been published.)
Team point criteria can be downloaded from the international link on the USFA website.
Div I SN results are not counted for team selection but are counted for rolling points.

[passata_sotto]

Did you download the points and see how they are calculated?

It looks like they used his points from the SYC from last year along with the Y14 points from this year's NAC B and the cadet points from both the NAC A and NAC B but left out the points from last year's NAC F and Nationals.

[passata_sotto]

Okay, so I went back to the Athlete's Handbook and read that they only use the top four best results for the year (rolling points) out of both the cadet and Y14 results. That would make my son's point total correct. For some reason I thought that cadet and Y14 were figured separately and then added together.

[flick n' roll]

There are different criteria for rolling and team point calculations.
Events which are included in rolling points calculations, such as Div I, are in the Athlete's Handbook. (Unfortunately, this season's handbook has not been published.)
Team point criteria can be downloaded from the international link on the USFA website.
Div I SN results are not counted for team selection but are counted for rolling points.

So the current team point standings ARE in fact incorrectly calculated??

[CorinneG]

There is an error in the JWE Team point standings and a correction was sent to the office today. I'll check into the foil points this weekend and send corrections as necessary.

This is why we start posting the team points before they are starting to be used. I go cross-eyed and brain-dead after looking at 72 different point lists and with the variations in the team and rolling for Cadet and Junior - I just make mistakes sometimes. All you parents/fencers/coaches out there are great to be reviewing and checking them out. Thanks!!

Corinne

When looking through the team point calculations, I noticed (at least for men's and women's foil) that there were some errors in the calculations. For both junior men's and women's foil, the results from the Div. 1 National Championships (aka Summer Nationals in Texas) are being included in the team calculations. However, in the championship selection criteria (link below) it never mentions that these points from Div. 1 are to be included in the team standings.

Can someone clarify whether or not this is true? Has the criteria been changed since 8/14/09 (the last date the criteria was updated)? If not, then the current team standings for junior men's/women's foil are incorrect.


http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/doc...ed_8.14.09.pdf

[CorinneG]

OK - just did a quick check. Looks like the Cadet points are OK.

The Division I Nationals were being included in the JMF team points when they shouldn't have been. I'll send the correction to the office tonight.

JWF team points have the Div I Champs counting at a weight of .6 and that is showing on the current points.

If I'm missed something - please let me know. If you have specific examples, it's easier for me to find the error in the formulas.

Thank you for your help with these crazy points!!

Corinne

[kelly Palmedo]

I just wanted to say thank you for getting the points updated so quickly and for all of the hard work everyone is doing. Mistakes are inevitable and if we all double check the points and work together to get them right with out blame, it is a win-win.
Thanks again.

[yamyam]

[If I'm missed something - please let me know. If you have specific examples, it's easier for me to find the error in the formulas.

Corinne[/QUOTE]

Hi Corinne,

Would you mind looking into #51 in the Senior WF points listing?
My daughter's name, Jennifer Yamin, has been missing since the last update.
She is on the Senior PDF form and the Senior team rolling points listing but not on the Senior points listing.
She acquired her 279 points at the NAC F in April 2009.
Thank You,
edward yamin

[CorinneG]

[If I'm missed something - please let me know. If you have specific examples, it's easier for me to find the error in the formulas.

Corinne

Hi Corinne,

Would you mind looking into #51 in the Senior WF points listing?
My daughter's name, Jennifer Yamin, has been missing since the last update.
She is on the Senior PDF form and the Senior team rolling points listing but not on the Senior points listing.
She acquired her 279 points at the NAC F in April 2009.
Thank You,
edward yamin[/QUOTE]

I sent in SWF points with her name on it to the National Office Friday - they should be fixed sometime on Monday.

Corinne

[yamyam]

I sent in SWF points with her name on it to the National Office Friday - they should be fixed sometime on Monday.

Thank you very much.

[Omar Bhutta]

This is why we start posting the team points before they are starting to be used. I go cross-eyed and brain-dead after looking at 72 different point lists and with the variations in the team and rolling for Cadet and Junior - I just make mistakes sometimes. All you parents/fencers/coaches out there are great to be reviewing and checking them out. Thanks!!

Corinne

I just wanted to say thank you for getting the points updated so quickly and for all of the hard work everyone is doing. Mistakes are inevitable and if we all double check the points and work together to get them right with out blame, it is a win-win.
Thanks again.

Corrine,

I'd like to second Kelly's thanks, as keeping on top of the complexity that is the national point system is a time-consuming, and often thankless job. Kudos for the quick fix.

A question to ask though: it seems that since the rules around calculation of points are constant through a season (albeit different for each age/weapon/etc), what steps is the National Office taking to error-proof this process? Publishing it early is a nice stop-gap measure, but it seems that the onus to find mistakes should not be placed on the competitors, and instead the mistakes should be detected internally.

I'll be the first to acknowledge that I am clueless as to what the day-to-day operations of the NO staff are, but it seems that much of this work could be standardized/automated, to avoid mistakes occurring in what sounds like an incredibly complex system (which makes finding them even harder!).

Any upcoming changes on this front?

Thanks again for the great job,

OJ

[fdad]

Corrine,

I'd like to second Kelly's thanks, as keeping on top of the complexity that is the national point system is a time-consuming, and often thankless job. Kudos for the quick fix.

A question to ask though: it seems that since the rules around calculation of points are constant through a season (albeit different for each age/weapon/etc), what steps is the National Office taking to error-proof this process? Publishing it early is a nice stop-gap measure, but it seems that the onus to find mistakes should not be placed on the competitors, and instead the mistakes should be detected internally.

I'll be the first to acknowledge that I am clueless as to what the day-to-day operations of the NO staff are, but it seems that much of this work could be standardized/automated, to avoid mistakes occurring in what sounds like an incredibly complex system (which makes finding them even harder!).

Any upcoming changes on this front?

Thanks again for the great job,

OJ

Haven't you heard? Hang-A-Star will have a new system in place by Summer NAtionals 2009 that will automate this and many other processes, including NAC registration, check-in, results, points calculation, etc.

[teacup]

Corrine,

I'd like to second Kelly's thanks, as keeping on top of the complexity that is the national point system is a time-consuming, and often thankless job. Kudos for the quick fix........

upcoming changes on this front?

Thanks again for the great job,

OJ

Many thanks to Corinne. Considering she no longer works for the USFA, it is unlikely she would know the answers to these questions.

So even more thanks to Corinne are in order.