Italian Grip?

[oiuyt]

"Look at what is being used at the top level of fencing to see if the idea is worth anything"

Yeah, I hear that's what Dick Fosbury's former coach says too....

-B

[Mergs]

Yeah, I hear that's what Dick Fosbury's former coach says too....

-B

Ah, but there we are talking a radically new technique, not one that is centuries old. Big difference.

[I_luv_saber]

Ah, but there we are talking a radically new technique, not one that is centuries old. Big difference.

Although that's one that could be easily explained by Migopods hypothesis. Perhaps the Italian no longer has the disadvantage it once had, but due to it's longtime banishment from competitive fencing (practically, not literally), it's just not used anymore out of habit.

Not saying the Italian would offer advantages to the competitive fencer - just that I don't buy that line of reasoning.

Upright bicycles are all you see anyone use, but that doesn't mean that recumbent cycles don't have their advantages over them

[SJCFU#2]

The problem with Migopod's hypothesis that Italian grips fell out of favor because they were not as useful with relatively recent techniques such as the flick is that Italian grips had already fallen out of favor before the flick went mainstream.

[fatfencer]

I suspect they fell out of favor for much the same reason as as anything else falls out of favor. 'Newer' is always better because its exciting and new.

When new also becomes envogue then you really have problems.

I don't for a minute believe that orthos(outside of flicking) are any better for parry riposte than an Italian. Someone may disagree...but they should say WHY, empirically WHY... not just that Baldini doesn't use one.

Style is not causal because theres some intelligent thought behind it. Style is often causal because of mere peer pressure and coach pressure. Remember some of these coaches sell gear too.

AS for parrying, you can parry BETTER with the Italian and riposte better too. You have a great deal of power and surety... especially if you have carpal/RSI like I do. Also I find that I have better finger usage and targeting with it since I'm just manipulating with the tips of the fingers and carrying the foil weight with my arm.

I even managed to do a double double with it. Something I've never managed to do with my visconti small.

So I say read up on it. You don't have to do any goofy Italian hand positions a la Gaugler. Just parry as you usually do. 4/6/7/8/5/3....and circular.

And theres nothing in the rules that say you cannot modify the Italian to make it flickable. AS long as your hand must stay in ONE position you are ok.

Fatfencer

[RebelFencer]

I suspect they fell out of favor for much the same reason as as anything else falls out of favor. 'Newer' is always better because its exciting and new.

When new also becomes envogue then you really have problems.

I don't for a minute believe that orthos(outside of flicking) are any better for parry riposte than an Italian. Someone may disagree...but they should say WHY, empirically WHY... not just that Baldini doesn't use one.

Style is not causal because theres some intelligent thought behind it. Style is often causal because of mere peer pressure and coach pressure. Remember some of these coaches sell gear too.

AS for parrying, you can parry BETTER with the Italian and riposte better too. You have a great deal of power and surety... especially if you have carpal/RSI like I do. Also I find that I have better finger usage and targeting with it since I'm just manipulating with the tips of the fingers and carrying the foil weight with my arm.

I even managed to do a double double with it. Something I've never managed to do with my visconti small.

So I say read up on it. You don't have to do any goofy Italian hand positions a la Gaugler. Just parry as you usually do. 4/6/7/8/5/3....and circular.

And theres nothing in the rules that say you cannot modify the Italian to make it flickable. AS long as your hand must stay in ONE position you are ok.

Fatfencer

Right, the only reason people moved to pistol grips was for the novelty of it. The fact that no one at any appreciable level has switched back to an Italian grip means...?

I do agree partially with your argument, because if the Italian grip were just released today with never having existed before, I'm certain a lot of people would buy it and try it because of the fact that it is new. The problem is that at an elite level (or even just better intranational fencers), people aren't so concerned about "newness" as they are function. If the Italian grip really had some measurable advantage over other grips then someone would find a use for it if for no other reason than to be different. Let's look at French grips. People still fence and train with those. One of my friends at the club would make himself fence with a French grip whenever his point control was out of wack so he had to use his fingers more. Some of us Epee' fencers just post with it. Basically what I'm saying is that if there is any possible use/advantage to a grip, it will be used. The fact that the Italian is not used outside of such a small group proves its own point.

[migopod]

The problem with Migopod's hypothesis that Italian grips fell out of favor because they were not as useful with relatively recent techniques such as the flick is that Italian grips had already fallen out of favor before the flick went mainstream.

I think it was more of a conjecture than a hypothesis.

Are you aware of any literature from early 20th c. coaches about why the orthos beat out the Italians before mainstream technique made them obsolete? At a guess I'd think that orthos became less expensive and more available because of improvements in aluminum smelting and casting methods, so cost and scarcity barriers to adoption of aluminum grips would have gone away by the 20's and 30's. Again, not sure what documents exist that might ilumintate this, but do you know if the shift to orthos was gradual or over a few years for the most part?

One thing that I'm finding really interesting as well is Schlager7's awesome youtube chanel. The modern game in the 1920's and 30's actualy looks a lot more like the current modern game than it does like "classical fencing". So probably same factors that might limit usefuless of the Italian in today's modern game may have also been factors back in ye olden days, in particular infighting and parry size.

[fatfencer]

Right, the only reason people moved to pistol grips was for the novelty of it. The fact that no one at any appreciable level has switched back to an Italian grip means...?

I do agree partially with your argument, because if the Italian grip were just released today with never having existed before, I'm certain a lot of people would buy it and try it because of the fact that it is new. The problem is that at an elite level (or even just better intranational fencers), people aren't so concerned about "newness" as they are function. If the Italian grip really had some measurable advantage over other grips then someone would find a use for it if for no other reason than to be different. Let's look at French grips. People still fence and train with those. One of my friends at the club would make himself fence with a French grip whenever his point control was out of wack so he had to use his fingers more. Some of us Epee' fencers just post with it. Basically what I'm saying is that if there is any possible use/advantage to a grip, it will be used. The fact that the Italian is not used outside of such a small group proves its own point.

That last bit in bold would be true if it weren't a fallacy. Ultimately most European trained coaches don't even know what to do with the thing and just poo poo it away as a novelty without really giving it a fair shake.

I have never felt an italian epee but would likely agree its useless.

Ortho grips are cheaper, colorful , more prevalent, etc.

[Superscribe]

That last bit in bold would be true if it weren't a fallacy. Ultimately most European trained coaches don't even know what to do with the thing and just poo poo it away as a novelty without really giving it a fair shake.

I have never felt an italian epee but would likely agree its useless.

Ortho grips are cheaper, colorful , more prevalent, etc.

You asked for "empirical" evidence on why. You don't seem to know what empirical means. If you don't know what the word means, I doubt you know what it implies.

"There are exactly zero fencers who use an italian grip in foil for competition i the top 32 in at the last 4 senior world cups."

Further, people stopped using italian way before ortho's became popular. The idea that people try and latch onto something new simply because it's new (does not have a real advantage) is generally not true in the arena of competitive results. Just look at the zivkovic grips. Kind of new? Yes. Popular among high level foil fencers? I can tell you, empirically, they're not.

[I_luv_saber]

I think it was more of a conjecture than a hypothesis.

Sorry for paraphrasing... I was looking for a better word, but it didn't come to me at the time

[fatfencer]

You asked for "empirical" evidence on why. You don't seem to know what empirical means. If you don't know what the word means, I doubt you know what it implies.

"There are exactly zero fencers who use an italian grip in foil for competition i the top 32 in at the last 4 senior world cups."

Further, people stopped using italian way before ortho's became popular. The idea that people try and latch onto something new simply because it's new (does not have a real advantage) is generally not true in the arena of competitive results. Just look at the zivkovic grips. Kind of new? Yes. Popular among high level foil fencers? I can tell you, empirically, they're not.

Context... I'm not so sure you know what it means or what it implies... I want someone to tell me empirically(e.g. based on observation) WHY Italian Grips aren't used instead of the circular reasoning people normally use.

No doubt the most popular responses will be something like:

1) My coach thinks they are_______. e.g. 'stupid', goofy looking,

2) They are expensive

[Allen Evans]

Reasons Italian grips aren't used anymore in sport competition:

1. Gripped correctly, they allow a great deal of "feeling" on the blade, but are easy to dislodge from the fencers grip, requiring the use of a strap to provide more support. Since most fencing is done with absence of blade (esp. at higher levels) any native advantage the Italian grip has is lost -- opponents just don't play complicated blade games anymore.

2. Gripped correctly, and using a strap, the Italian grip does not allow the quick shifting of angles that modern fencing often requires when distances close. It's very difficult to make very close hits using an Italian grip, unless the user does not use a strap (see #1 above). Strongly angulated parries (such as a thrown tierce when closing distance and controlling the blade) are difficult to riposte from with an Italian. A pistol grip allows very extreme angles at close distance while still allowing reasonable accuracy.

3. Gripped incorrectly (beginners often put their fingers through the rings, rather than gripping the sides of the ricasso) the Italian grip can deliver more power. However, hard actions against the blade by the opponent can actually cause physical damange to the fingers (I've seen it happen), even when a strap is used.

4. It's difficult to cant an Italian blade to the angle necessary in order to make strongly angulated hits and flicks (in addition, see #2 above).

5. The power in an Italian grip can be quite strong, but only in certain types of meetings of the blade such as conventional binds and froissments. This is not true of pistol grips, which have a large envelope in which they can deliver power to the tip and to the oppoent's blade (see 4 above).


I fenced with an Italian grip in foil and epee for many years. Up to the level of a "D" or "C" foil tournament, it was adequate but not a superior performer. In epee, it's utility was even more limited.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Reasons Italian grips aren't used anymore in sport competition:

1. Gripped correctly, they allow a great deal of "feeling" on the blade, but are easy to dislodge from the fencers grip, requiring the use of a strap to provide more support. Since most fencing is done with absence of blade (esp. at higher levels) any native advantage the Italian grip has is lost -- opponent's just don't play complicated blade games anymore.

2. Gripped correctly, and using a strap, the Italian grip does not allow the quick shifting of angles that modern fencing often requires when distances close. It's very difficult to make very close hits using an Italian grip, unless the user does not use a strap (see #1 above). Strongly angulated parries (such as a thrown tierce when closing distance and controlling the blade) are difficult to riposte from with an Italian. A pistol grip allows very extreme angles at close distance while still allowing reasonable accuracy.

3. Gripped incorrectly (beginners often put their fingers through the rings, rather than gripping the sides of the ricasso) the Italian grip can deliver more power. However, hard actions against the blade by the opponent can actually cause physical damange to the fingers (I've seen it happen), even when a strap is used.

4. It's difficult to cant an Italian blade to the angle necessary in order to make strongly angulated hits and flicks (in addition, see #2 above).

5. The power in an Italian grip can be quite strong, but only in certain types of meetings of the blade such as conventional binds and froissments. This is not true of pistols grips, which have a large envelope in which they can deliver power to the tip and to the oppoent's blade (see 4 above).


I fenced with an Italian grip in foil and epee for many years. Up to the level of a "D" or "C" foil tournament, it was adequate but not a superior performer. In epee, it's utility was even more limited.

This. I used to use an Italian grip. For me, the biggest thing was that I couldn't create the actions which were necessary to play to my strengths. I had great binds, which I drilled often. When I had hold of my opponent's blade, I did very well. Unfortunately, once I was at anything that was not a D&Under or lower (and even then, in the top eight or so of the lower level events), it wasn't working for me. I found that I was able to do everything that I could with an Italian grip with a pistol grip. The thing was, I could do things with a pistol grip that I couldn't with an Italian.

I find that sentiment du fer is highly overrated.

[Superscribe]

Context... I'm not so sure you know what it means or what it implies... I want someone to tell me empirically(e.g. based on observation) WHY Italian Grips aren't used instead of the circular reasoning people normally use.

No doubt the most popular responses will be something like:

1) My coach thinks they are_______. e.g. 'stupid', goofy looking,

2) They are expensive

Just because you saw someone use it in a fencing forum and then briefly went over to check out it's definition on a dictionary doesn't mean you have a good grasp on what a word means and how it's used. Just like newbies think they know what an attack into preparation is, but they don't really.

What you seem to be looking for is a principled reason why italian grips aren't used. You might even want an experiential explanation.

Both of those were given by Allen Evans. Many of the things he said were stated before. It's just people choose not to accept them.

[fatfencer]

That isn't what I was looking for

I guess I was looking for someone who had empirical data from top fencers as to why they dont use it anymore... not just 3rd hand anecdotes. In short, was looking to hear from a top level (international worldcuppers) coach as to why his/her fencers don't use it. I suspect that data really doesnt exist. We know why they use orthos.. but likely, nearly none of them have ever had an Italian strapped on their arm.. so how would they know enough to give an INFORMED opinion?

That said, Allan came up with some great, well informed points.

Notice I said Allan.

[Some talk about a bet against superscribe which should be handled via PM and not in the forums.]

Meanwhile, I still like the Italian Grip. You can fence absent du fer with it but you can't flick. I get that. I don't care to flick much any more. I use it mainly to rest my hand from the uber grip i have with my visconti or belgian.

[keith]

In short, was looking to hear from a top level (international worldcuppers) coach as to why his/her fencers don't use it.

Yeah, not like these folk have anything better to do than hang out on fnet answering your questions.

People, eh!

[migopod]

Allen's reply was exactly the kind of information I was interested in.
One can observe that there are no Italian grips at the top levels and just attribute their absence to their unsuitability for the modern game. This might or might not be correct. I'm completely unqualified to speculate on top-level foil and Italian grips, since I don't fence foil, don't use Italians and am very far from the top levels of the sport in any weapon (can't even see it from my house).

Just because none of the higher ups use something does not automatically make it unsuitable. The specific data points presented however, provide a good explanation of why it would be a disadvantage sufficient to make it worth avoiding at that level.

[oiuyt]

Yeah, but other than well-reasoned discussion from an experienced source who has actually used one for a time and doesn't feel that they're suitable for the current high-level game, can't we get empirical or experiential evidence of whether or not they can be used effectively?

As long as all we have for evidence is what the top people use (and what the top people for just a few short decades have used), plus the opinions of people we know and trust as experts, based upon their personal experiences and their understanding of the game, how can we definitively rule them out?

I mean we might as well just get into online pissing contests and challenge people to whip out and measure our.... academic degrees.

-B

[fatfencer]

Yeah, but other than well-reasoned discussion from an experienced source who has actually used one for a time and doesn't feel that they're suitable for the current high-level game, can't we get empirical or experiential evidence of whether or not they can be used effectively?

As long as all we have for evidence is what the top people use (and what the top people for just a few short decades have used), plus the opinions of people we know and trust as experts, based upon their personal experiences and their understanding of the game, how can we definitively rule them out?

I mean we might as well just get into online pissing contests and challenge people to whip out and measure our.... academic degrees.

-B

Brad, if we are wondering why high level foilists don't use them than, with all due respect, Allen might not count. I mean he might, I don't know for sure. Even if he were a current or recent former high level foilist he would only be ONE. I could have misread his previous posts about him being a C when he used one. I don't remember what he wrote and I can't be bothered to scroll up and read it.

Seriously though, Just looking for more data than one person's opinion provides.

Oooh.. innuendo. I think Brad wants to see me naked or 'look at my diploma'.

Bwahahaha
Fatfencer

[Mergs]

Give it a rest, guys. Plenty of folks have played around with all four of the main grips - french, italian, orthopedic and paddle (zivovich) and today's foil game is orthopedic. Accept it and move on. Yes even Nadi diss'ed the french grip in his day, and probably with good reason for how he fenced, but that was over 80 years ago.

This is like another discussion I have been monitoring regarding the current caliber of rifle ammunition being used in Afghanistan; nice to hear war stories about how the M16 sucked in Vietnam and how guys sought out the M14, but that has no relavence to what is happening today, except for the range factor. But that is an entirely different thread.

If you want to use an italian grip, be my guest. Just don't b***h about getting you arse handed to you on a regular basis.