Italian Grip?

[migopod]

@FF, your inbox is full sir. In reply tho', the two photos are of the same piece which was made as a one-off for a former clubmate's birthday and I don't have a second one.

@ILS Although the grip I posted would not be legal since the quillons extended beyond the guard (and it wasn't electric), the Italian grip and wrist strap are indeed legal, but current referee consensus indicates that these devices are only legal when used by fencers wearing colored socks, bandanas and nike ballestras. Shouting is optional.

[Gav]

So, with all this said, are Italian grips even legal for competition?

Yes, I'm a jerk.

What about wrist straps? Those can't be legal, right?

Yes, I'm that much of a jerk.

Don't make me close the thread!

[DHCJr]

So, with all this said, are Italian grips even legal for competition?

Yes, I'm a jerk.

What about wrist straps? Those can't be legal, right?

Yes, I'm that much of a jerk.

As Gav pointed out, you can find your argument over and over again.

Wrist straps are legal, except when used with French. See M.4.6.a.

With a French Handle a slightly loose strap would allow the fencer to change positions on the handle while still having a strong grip.

Please do not promote this urban legend. Learn the rules.

[oiuyt]

And, no matter what, if you're going to insist on posting a joke please make sure you include a smilie of some sort. Or perhaps some whited-out text.

In any case, make sure that it's really obvious that you're not serious. We have people here who don't always catch subtlety and it's not really nice to wind them up without sufficient clues and hints that that is what you are doing.

-B

[KidLazy]

I do not see myself ever becoming A rank

No, if you continue to use Italian grip.

I tried the pistol grips and found my fingers are too damn long to use them comfortable (piano fingers), and as for the French... it's nice, but my hand hurts quickly over time.

adjust the setup.

[Ken Mondschein]

Of course they're legal.

[I_luv_saber]

And, no matter what, if you're going to insist on posting a joke please make sure you include a smilie of some sort. Or perhaps some whited-out text.

*Best baseball coach voice*

Good eye, son, good eye!

In any case, make sure that it's really obvious that you're not serious. We have people here who don't always catch subtlety and it's not really nice to wind them up without sufficient clues and hints that that is what you are doing.

-B

The whited out text explains myself, I'm sure .

I just couldn't resist... (although upon reflection, perhaps small text would have made the joke just as funny, while being a little more obvious...)

[I_luv_saber]

In case no one gets what Brad is talking about...

I was making a very poorly executed jab at the fact that we've had about a billion discussions regarding this, but it seems in every Italian grip thread the question of legality comes up, to the point that it's comical/sad/frustrating to old heads on the board.

Just a bad joke on my part. Carry on.

[fatfencer]

Of course they're legal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ubW...eature=related

See 4.20-23

[Gaunai]

No, if you continue to use Italian grip.

Oh well. I'll have more fun testing myself with a grip I've been told is obsolete then going with the same grips everyone else is using. The fun, to me, is in the chase. Not the end result.

[migopod]

Actually I'm suddenly curious. I don't know a whole lot about current foil, and I'm hardly a grip evangelist, but with post-2005 timings does using an Italian grip deprive a foilist of many high percentage tactical choices? I've heard that flicking is pretty much out the window with the Italian, but with current timings is that as big of a disadvantage as it used to be?
The absence of Italian grips at top levels of the sport does not necessarily imply causation. They're relatively rare at all levels, but is that because they're not suited for modern fencing, or just because they're (as evidenced by the OP) not easy to find?

Replies with whited out text will be taken at face value.

Kthksbai.

[fatfencer]

Actually I'm suddenly curious. I don't know a whole lot about current foil, and I'm hardly a grip evangelist, but with post-2005 timings does using an Italian grip deprive a foilist of many high percentage tactical choices? I've heard that flicking is pretty much out the window with the Italian, but with current timings is that as big of a disadvantage as it used to be?
The absence of Italian grips at top levels of the sport does not necessarily imply causation. They're relatively rare at all levels, but is that because they're not suited for modern fencing, or just because they're (as evidenced by the OP) not easy to find?

Replies with whited out text will be taken at face value.

Kthksbai.

I fenced with my Rockwell Italians tonite. I haven't fenced with them in like 3 years so it was definitely an adjustment.

For me personally it was great. I fenced well largely because I was FORCED to limit my actions.

And yes, absence doesn't equal causation as I have said many times over the years. It's just that over the last 20 years or so the flick has been uber-dominant and that action has a certain elan, joie de vivre, etc. It's a powerful exciting action.

As such... neither the French or the Italian got used.

Considering today's timings it is an advantage. I've never had great distance in fencing. So usually I get lots of passe', glancing blows, etc. Not tonight.


It's too small a sample.

I will say one thing though.

FIE BF blues really suck for Italian grips. The foibles are so flexible.

Definitely STM or Vniti.

[Gaunai]

It seems to me that this is a recurring idea that happens in most forms of competition. I'll use a few examples.

First, (this one may sound stupid.. but it's relevant) in most competitive card games there are dominate deck types. People consider other deck ideas to be not worth their time... until the decks they thought were worthless wins an event.

Second, I also play Airsoft competitively on the college level. We've hated on people who used single shot snipers for years.. until we got stomped by a team with two amazing "snipers."

While the skill emphasis of each of the before mentioned "sports" is different, the concept is the same. People will land-blast anything they don't see winning, until it wins. Once it does opinion changes. All it takes is someone to find how to win with it. Which... can be quite difficult but well worth the effort if pulled off successfully.

[RebelFencer]

It seems to me that this is a recurring idea that happens in most forms of competition. I'll use a few examples.

First, (this one may sound stupid.. but it's relevant) in most competitive card games there are dominate deck types. People consider other deck ideas to be not worth their time... until the decks they thought were worthless wins an event.

Second, I also play Airsoft competitively on the college level. We've hated on people who used single shot snipers for years.. until we got stomped by a team with two amazing "snipers."

While the skill emphasis of each of the before mentioned "sports" is different, the concept is the same. People will land-blast anything they don't see winning, until it wins. Once it does opinion changes. All it takes is someone to find how to win with it. Which... can be quite difficult but well worth the effort if pulled off successfully.

The point people are making is that there are absolutely zero high level fencers in either foil or epee' who use an italian grip because of its limitations. I'm not going to go on a rant since this isn't the thread for that. But it just boils down to this: If you want to fence with an Italian grip just because it's something you'd like to do, then who cares what anyone says. People are only saying that once you reach a certain level, actions become mechanically too difficult or impossible because of its design.

[DangerMouse]

The point people are making is that there are absolutely zero high level fencers in either foil or epee' who use an italian grip because of its limitations.

Saber on the other hand...

[RebelFencer]

Saber on the other hand...

Ha, yeah. Italian is all I ever fence with when I fence Saber, the pistol grips just feel to weird with it.

[migopod]

The point people are making is that there are absolutely zero high level fencers in either foil or epee' who use an italian grip because of its limitations. I'm not going to go on a rant since this isn't the thread for that. But it just boils down to this: If you want to fence with an Italian grip just because it's something you'd like to do, then who cares what anyone says. People are only saying that once you reach a certain level, actions become mechanically too difficult or impossible because of its design.

Actually this is what I was curious about. With the timing changes in 2005 supposedly flicking became less prevalent at least to the point where while it's still used and successful, it's not as huge of a competitive disadvantage to not do it. My impression of the Italian grip is that it may complicate infighting, at least with wrist strap, but otherwise I'm curious about how much of a competitive disadvantage there really is these days.

The absence of Italian handles at high levels of foil could also be explained by the fact that they're hard to find and because of their previous disadvantages coaches discourage them out of habit.

So assuming the infighting and flicking are not so hot with the Italian, if one has structured their game such that these facets aren't relied upon as heavily, what other disadvantages are there?

I'm not sure I'd suggest, that they do provide significant advantages, but is it really that much worse to use an Italian? There's no "magic grip" that makes a bad fencer successful*, couldn't a decent fencer do okay with any handle?



*Only the Nike Ballestra can do that!

[RebelFencer]

Actually this is what I was curious about. With the timing changes in 2005 supposedly flicking became less prevalent at least to the point where while it's still used and successful, it's not as huge of a competitive disadvantage to not do it. My impression of the Italian grip is that it may complicate infighting, at least with wrist strap, but otherwise I'm curious about how much of a competitive disadvantage there really is these days.

The absence of Italian handles at high levels of foil could also be explained by the fact that they're hard to find and because of their previous disadvantages coaches discourage them out of habit.

So assuming the infighting and flicking are not so hot with the Italian, if one has structured their game such that these facets aren't relied upon as heavily, what other disadvantages are there?

I'm not sure I'd suggest, that they do provide significant advantages, but is it really that much worse to use an Italian? There's no "magic grip" that makes a bad fencer successful*, couldn't a decent fencer do okay with any handle?



*Only the Nike Ballestra can do that!

Well yes, a decent fencer could do ok with any handle. I completely agree. It just gets to the point where the disadvantages begin to weigh more heavily. Example: You go to fence in a Division III NAC and you have big parries. You use the right parry when necessary, and your technique around it is decent but they're big. You can do well at the tournament. Division II NAC, maybe not as well..but still decent. Division I NAC, get picked apart. That's not to say that Italian grip=bad technique, but moreso that the higher level you fence at the tighter your all around game needs to be to be successful. I'm just an average foil fencer (have my D in it), but from what I can see the italian removes a good amount of the finesse capability. And flicking is still prevalent at high levels and not so high levels, the timing just made people have to do it right.

[Mergs]

Its about 20 degrees off.. oh dammit wheres my protractor.

Ah, if you had a Tang Gauge from The Armorer's Store, you wouldn't have that problem! ;-)

[Mergs]

While all this is a interesting academic discussion, I alway go back to a quote from Dan DeChaine - "Look at what is being used at the top level of fencing to see if the idea is worth anything" (or words to that effect).

How many WC/GP level fencers do you see using Italian grips?