Martial Arts Professional

[jjefferies]

We're expanding, now's the time to do it what with building prices the lowest they've been in years. And we're taking over part of the space previously occupied by a kick box studio which has moved on to a bigger and better space. In the process I was throwing out some kick boxing magazines and looked through them. What was interesting was the emphasis on financial advancement even more so than advancement in the various arts represented. The advertisements in particular told the story of (probably the magazine's management's) a focus on managing clubs/studios/dojo's financially. Seemed every other page was an ad for some sort of billing software or for NAPMA (National Association of Professional Martial Arts??). I'm not at all sure that I am sympathetic to their view. But given the financial straits I've seen within fencing I read it for content. Yes there were a number of ads on how to register for professional advancement courses given on line that would allow you to charge more for private lessons and a number of ads for "Big Ass Fans" (actually we could use one or two of those). But in between the get rich schemes were bits on "Mulitiply your Print Advertising Results without spending Another Dime!", "Harvest a Bumper Crop of New Students this Fall", "Take Advantage of Free Resources and Member-School-Growth Programs". Took those titles from just a couple of pages.

I thought it all quite an intriguing spiel given the lack of anything approaching that level of organizational push in the fencing community. The stridency of it was a bit disconcerting. But the mags did make for some thought provoking reading. The martial arts as they were regarding them are the eastern variety of judo, karate, taekwondo, hapkido, etc. and perhaps boxing or at least kick boxing. Fencing and boxing are of course the western martial arts or at least descended from. But the marketing ideas and concepts seemed to me to be cross sport. They've got an online segment that you might care to check out:

http://www.martialartsprofessional.com/

Not my "thing" mind but a bit intriguing nonetheless.
Best regards

[noodle]

the issue is volume. even in a smaller town, there's probably a handful of martial arts studios. not so with fencing. these ads and free programs are funnels for paid programs.

p.s.: malware detected on that website.

[Allen Evans]

With a few exceptions, many fencing clubs are not run as businesses. Ten years ago, I asked the owner of a fencer club who was paying dues and who wasn't at his club. He told me that he was a fencing coach, not a bill collector, and he didn't keep track of those things. Fortunately, this attitude is starting to change among clubs.

There are many many models to follow from martial arts in terms of finanances and financial club management. If I was starting a club in a new area, I spend some time going door to door with martial arts studios there, and get a feel for what the going rate for lessons and classes are in the area of a prospective fencing school. Most fencing clubs price themselves too low for the prospective market.

[Ken Mondschein]

Interesting observations. As someone with a foot in both worlds, I feel comfortable hypothesizing that eastern-style martial arts sports like kendo and karate have succeeded where Western martial arts sports like fencing and boxing have failed in part due to savvy marketing and business plans. Belts, for the most obvious instance, are a big draw, but ranking people in such a way is antithetical to the milieu of French republican ideas in which the modern game has its origins. (See Nye on this.) Also, "real" fencing masters aren't supposed to have business sense - I remember stories about Giorgio Santelli basically giving away stuff for the love of fencing.

Fencing instructors need to develop business savvy and marketing schemes. This would be a wonderful article for Swordmaster, if someone would care to write it.

[NGV]

the issue is volume. even in a smaller town, there's probably a handful of martial arts studios. not so with fencing.

Right- for-profit martial arts studios are a fixture of the American landscape. Do a google maps search for "(name of small or random medium-sized town)" followed by "martial arts," and this becomes clear. For example, Cookeville, TN (population 27,000) produces seven listings. Obviously, martial as a business proposition is vastly different from fencing.

Of course, there may be some marketing ideas that can be applied to both. Still, there's a big difference between a business that competes for a share of existing demand, and a business that is generally required to create demand out of almost nothing.

[jjefferies]

the issue is volume. even in a smaller town, there's probably a handful of martial arts studios. not so with fencing. these ads and free programs are funnels for paid programs.

p.s.: malware detected on that website.

Oops, I didn't check the link for malware. But then I run from linux and the infection rate is slightly lower there. Hope no one was infected. And you are absolutely correct the whole website and the magazine were basically an advertising funnel for paid products. But don't we in the fencing community need some of that? The USFA's been a bit fuddy duddy over the years probably as a result of its descent from the AFLA with the back then popular over emphasis on amateur.

But as another poster mentions almost any small town has a martial arts studio. The magazine is worth a read, at least one copy. But we fencers do have mind set which makes it difficult to push the financial side. My main coach is eastern european trained and it's been a struggle to get him to see himself as a small businessman as well as a coach. If he had the option he would undoubtedly opt for the old Soviet model of a coach selecting from among the teeming thousands of wantabe athletes. He's slowly come to grips with the necessities of being a modern US coach which means being business savy.

[Allen Evans]

Interesting observations. As someone with a foot in both worlds, I feel comfortable hypothesizing that eastern-style martial arts sports like kendo and karate have succeeded where Western martial arts sports like fencing and boxing have failed in part due to savvy marketing and business plans....snip...This would be a wonderful article for Swordmaster, if someone would care to write it.

With a feet in both worlds, why shouldn't you be the one to write it?

Obviously, martial as a business proposition is vastly different from fencing.

It's not obvious to me. How is it different?

Maybe you and Ken should collaborate on an article.

[ivlobane]

With a feet in both worlds, why shouldn't you be the one to write it?



It's not obvious to me. How is it different?

Maybe you and Ken should collaborate on an article.

It's actually not different at all, in fact in my experience two financially successful clubs that I have worked at (VAF and DCFC) have a business model very similar to a Kempo Karate Dojo I signed a contract with for a year. Key word: contract.

IVL

[noodle]

It's actually not different at all, in fact in my experience two financially successful clubs that I have worked at (VAF and DCFC) have a business model very similar to a Kempo Karate Dojo I signed a contract with for a year. Key word: contract.

IVL

i agree. the schools that seem to be run closer to a martial arts studio
(from a business standpoint) tend to do better. in general.

[fatfencer]

one of the best things I ever did in my MA days was go to auto billing of one's checking acct or credit card.

Its cheap, simple AND binds the customer to you. Contracts are retarded. The best schools forego them for month to month BUT have autobilling.

Even if people dont want to go fence, often they will because they have already been charged. Interest in a sport waxes and wanes, but rent and utilities essentially do NOT.

Create a cadre of people within your sport who give a **** about your club. Reward them with jackets, 'asst coaching' monikers, status. Peer pressure is one way to go.. far better than contracts.

NAPMA/ACMA, etc. is John Graden's puppy from way back when... like late 80's or something. It's been thru a lot of revisions.. its contract based and is one way to go, I spose. I never paid him any money. Didn't see the point in it.

Holding people captive and possibly sending students and their parents to collections when they fall on hard times is bad business in my book.

I don't know that fencing has much commerce with martial arts, unless by MA someone really means 'run it like a business'.

But then why not compare it to a health spa-gym with memberships, auto billing and no contracts?

[Ken Mondschein]

I'd prefer not to write the article; I'm the editor. My job is to sit on you until you write it.

[Allen Evans]

It's actually not different at all...

Yes. Pretty much my point (which is why I suggested visiting local martial arts schools to get a feel for what was being done in the area.

Contracts can be a great asset to running a fencing club, but have to be administered carefully. Even a well structured contract can scare off some students. If handled poorly, they can actually deter customer growth.

The only fencing club I know of that folded financially actually used contracts with students. They are usefull, but they aren't a solution to bad financial management or a club that hasn't positioned itself to take advantage of its best market.

[NGV]

It's not obvious to me. How is it different?

I actually don't know anything about running either a fencing school or martial arts school. But I do know that Goldsboro, NC has six martial arts studios, according to Google. How many profitable fencing schools could a town like that sustain, realistically? Maybe one, far more likely zero.

A very basic contrast between fencing schools and martial arts schools is that there's existing demand almost everywhere for the former. I'm sure there are plenty of practices common in the martial arts business that could usefully be adopted by fencing clubs, but there are also some pretty clear differences in the nature of the entrepreneurial challenge in each case. Just as there's a difference between successfully opening and managing a McDonald's franchise versus, say, an Ethiopian restaurant.

[Ken Mondschein]

You think anybody thinks I'm a failure because I go home to Starla at night?

[oso97]

I actually don't know anything about running either a fencing school or martial arts school. But I do know that Goldsboro, NC has six martial arts studios, according to Google. How many profitable fencing schools could a town like that sustain, realistically? Maybe one, far more likely zero.

A very basic contrast between fencing schools and martial arts schools is that there's existing demand almost everywhere for the former. I'm sure there are plenty of practices common in the martial arts business that could usefully be adopted by fencing clubs, but there are also some pretty clear differences in the nature of the entrepreneurial challenge in each case. Just as there's a difference between successfully opening and managing a McDonald's franchise versus, say, an Ethiopian restaurant.

There are two main things hampering the continued growth of fencing in the USA:

1) A lack of trained coaches. I'm not talking about a fancy degree from a Hungarian elite school, I'm talking about the ability to take a syllabus that someone else has written, and run a group of beginner and intermediate students through it. Its not rocket science, but we need people like this. Badly.

2) A lack of realization on the part of current coaches and fencing clubs of who their real competitors are (in a business sense). The fencing club across town is NOT where your potential students are. Your potential students are taking Martial Arts and Gymnastics and Dance (and a few other things, but those are the big ones). A town with 7 martial arts studios can EASILY support a fencing salle. Granted, it would take some good marketing, and a good program, but, its by far an impossible task.

[Ken Mondschein]

This is, in a sense, where the modern/classical divide hurts us. A lot of the adults who would otherwise come in "to learn to use a sword" are diverted to "real martial arts" because of the knee-jerk "no, this is a modern, athletic sport" pitch that we give folks, and a lot of the parents who would sign their kids for fencing instead of karate up want to see bow-to-your-sensei type etiquette, instead of the situation of apparent slack that prevails in many fencing clubs.

[Allen Evans]

The problem isn't one of Classical School/Sport School divide, but rather, the approach the individual coach takes to marketing their program (and themselves) and finding out what the student expectations are when they walk in the door. When the a club doesn't find out what the expectations of the student are, the club often loses that student, when, in fact, the student can be convinced to stay even if the club doesn't quite meet their needs in every way. Sometimes, the student looking to "use a sword" can be convinced that sport fencing class is going to satisfy their needs after all (after all, the student doesn't know the difference between Classical and Sport Fencing). The parent looking for discipline for younger students might be convinced that the coach and his or her staff really do force proper behavior and ediquette, even if they don't insist on being called Maitre (or sensi). Five minutes of conversation can do a lot to sway attitudes.

At the same time, there are times when the club can't meet the expectations of the prospective student. The student may want to learn broadsword or basket-hilted sword (I've had requests for both in the last year) and the club doesn't have anyone trained to teach those weapons*. If the club doesn't have the space, the time, or the coaching staff, they may have to let a student pass.



*Indirectly, this nods towards Oso's post.

[Ken Mondschein]

Allen,

You actually made my point for me. What I was saying was that often, in my admittedly limited experience, coaches try to distance themselves from one camp so that they don't stop to find out what a potential student may want lies within that camp. Someone who walks in looking for "real sword fighting" might be persuaded to try épée. Broadsword, alas, is beyond most coaches' ken.

You're also right in that one should really sell the discipline angle to parents.

-Ken

[Allen Evans]

Sorry, I only made part of your point for you. Consider the short fencer who walks into a sport club wanting to learn epee. Consider the fencer who walks into a Classical French Salle to learn the Spanish or Italian school. The problem isn't limited to sport vs. classical, but to fencing coaches in general, their approach to the sport, and the lack of reasources most clubs have--or think they have.

Your experiance may be one of a classical seeking student walking into a sport fencing club, but I assure you that sport fencing clubs don't have a corner on the market when it comes to poor dealings with their students, and that this behavior isn't split down sport/classical lines.

A

[Ken Mondschein]

Hey, isn't there a master's thesis somewhere on height differences in*épée fencing?