Martial Arts Professional

[NGV]

A town with 7 martial arts studios can EASILY support a fencing salle.

If that's the case, then Reading PA, which appears to have 16 martial arts studios, should also be able to easily sustain two profitable fencing salles. Considering that it currently has zero, I guess that means there's an opportunity for some entrepreneurial fencing coach to make a huge amount lot of easy money by appealing to an untapped market that's twice as big as needed. Strange that no one has done so yet...

Or, let's take the San Francisco Bay area, which has several thousand martial arts schools. Would it really be practical to establish 500-600 profitable fencing schools there? We're pretty far short of that mark at the moment. The same could be said of pretty much any major metro area in the USA.

Suffice it to say, I think that no amount of entrepreneurial initiative would be sufficient to create a 7-1 martial arts/fencing school ratio in virtually any part of the US. Even a 70-1 ratio might be pushing it, in most places.

[noodle]

If that's the case, then Reading PA, which appears to have 16 martial arts studios, should also be able to easily sustain two profitable fencing salles. Considering that it currently has zero, I guess that means there's an opportunity for some entrepreneurial fencing coach to make a huge amount lot of easy money by appealing to an untapped market that's twice as big as needed. Strange that no one has done so yet...

Or, let's take the San Francisco Bay area, which has several thousand martial arts schools. Would it really be practical to establish 500-600 profitable fencing schools there? We're pretty far short of that mark at the moment. The same could be said of pretty much any major metro area in the USA.

Suffice it to say, I think that no amount of entrepreneurial initiative would be sufficient to create a 7-1 martial arts/fencing school ratio in virtually any part of the US. Even a 70-1 ratio might be pushing it, in most places.

most cities large enough can support a salle. they just usually don't, because there's not enough coaches to make it happen.

fencing is different than martial arts in the sense that skill progression with fencing is objective. competition under a single national organization provides a very [comparatively] objective measurement system for skills. its typically these competitive fencers that pay the bills for the salles.

some martial arts studios have very objective progressions, too. but most are very subjective. you can run a successful martial arts studio without having any actual knowledge, just out of a book you buy off amazon, and never taking your students to a competition. they are literally as good as you say they are.

[NGV]

most cities large enough can support a salle. they just usually don't, because there's not enough coaches to make it happen.

Again, I don't think the issue is supply. The issue is demand.

If a couple of the eight martial arts studios in Wasilla, Alaska (!) go out of business, would it really be feasible for a fencing coach to move there and set up a profitable fencing school in their place? I really doubt it.

Martial arts are part of the mainstream American culture - in urban, suburban and rural areas, and in every part of the country. Kids wearing gis and colorful belts are as ordinary a sight as kids playing soccer. Classes are commonly perceived as building self-confidence, self-discipline, physical fitness, etc. Most kids and most parents will personally know someone who's involved in the activity.

Fencing is something completely different - not just because it's a competitive sport as opposed to a non-competitive activity, but more so because it's out on the cultural fringes.

[darius]

I suspect most martial arts studios have far lower overhead than similar-caliber fencing clubs.

We did some work with a marketing company to try to figure out how to improve our adult rec demographics, and they said something that I really hadn't thought of before.

We can't just go out and run radio or TV ads, because fencing isn't something that people even think of as something they can do! People need multiple exposures to see that the activity is even possible, and then once they're thinking that way, then they look to find out where and that's where brand differentiation comes in. We'd be contributing to the "Oh, fencing?! Maybe I could try that" idea, and footing the advertising bills for OFA and PDX in the process.

Which is why, since we grow via word-of-mouth, we want our word of mouth to include this:

Classes are commonly perceived as building self-confidence, self-discipline, physical fitness, etc. Most kids and most parents will personally know someone who's involved in the activity.

darius

[noodle]

I suspect most martial arts studios have far lower overhead than similar-caliber fencing clubs.

lower, yep. far lower? not really.

[darius]

Perhaps not, but I was considering that they have a lot more options when it comes to layout configurations -- a long room and high ceilings are more necessary for fencers than they are for martial artists.

darius

[K O'N]

If that's the case, then Reading PA, which appears to have 16 martial arts studios, should also be able to easily sustain two profitable fencing salles. Considering that it currently has zero, I guess that means there's an opportunity for some entrepreneurial fencing coach to make a huge amount lot of easy money by appealing to an untapped market that's twice as big as needed. Strange that no one has done so yet...

Or, let's take the San Francisco Bay area, which has several thousand martial arts schools. Would it really be practical to establish 500-600 profitable fencing schools there? We're pretty far short of that mark at the moment. The same could be said of pretty much any major metro area in the USA.

Suffice it to say, I think that no amount of entrepreneurial initiative would be sufficient to create a 7-1 martial arts/fencing school ratio in virtually any part of the US. Even a 70-1 ratio might be pushing it, in most places.

I have a small epee-only club which meets three nights a week south of Houston. I just googled "Martial arts studio" + town name and got six hits; that may not be all of them, but I think it's about right. I have fifteen kids fencing in a part-time club; I could pretty easily double that if I advertised and had a storefront and fencing five nights a week, I think. I'm not sure if that would be enough students to pay the rent, and I'd hesitate to say I could certainly get three times my current group, although maybe I could.

How big does a professional club have to be to be self-sustaining, do we think? It depends on the fees and the bills, sure, but how big are most professional clubs? For some reason I'm thinking about 50-70 fencers, but that may be high.

Your argument that 500 to 600 schools in SF is unreasonable is compelling. I wonder if the number of schools as a function of population is not linear? Or maybe it is, maybe if we had coaches to run them and added five schools a year to SF, the local market would start to see fencing as something like martial arts, a viable alternative to high school sports. If you had a lot of clubs you wouldn't have to travel so much. Look at NJ, surely the density of clubs there is higher, just because everyone is used to fencing. I tend to think the limiting factor is coaches, or rather club owners, who can actually run a club and not piss everyone off.

I think the martial arts comparison is very apt. A few years ago I had a good bunch of high school athletes; some were soccer players who had quit the soccer team over some ridiculous shenanigans, one was an off-season pole vaulter, one did something else. Ok. So they took the beginner class in epee for a few weeks, and then you could see them sort of struggling to place it. Then one asked me, "Is an A sort of like a black belt?" I said, well, I think a black belt is supposed to do more than just win matches, and an A has to just do well in a big tournament, etc. I tried to sound like I had some respect for the whole black belt thing as I slagged it, you know. And that was it, they were fine with that. A = Black Belt, that placed it for them. A week later a dad came in to talk to me and said, "So I guess belt inflation hasn't hit fencing yet?" and I got to talk about how ratings used to be harder to get in Texas, but still, an A is a pretty high goal to set by the time you're out of high school. The whole thing worked pretty well for me. Using ratings as belt-analogs is about right, my kids tend to get an E after a year or so, a D after two, then it's down to how hard you work. One kid got a C in six months, moved and got an A in a year and is now in the single digits on the cadet list. Hey, guess what, talent is not evenly distributed. There's your lesson for the day.

One clear advantage fencing has over martial arts is the uniformity of competition; martial arts are all split up to this and that, it's like classical vs sport fencing times about a hundred. Fencing is fencing. I can take a Y12 kid who has fenced for six months and enter her in a Y12 epee thing in Houston and she's actually fencing, just like the big kids do. Full speed, reality based results and no one gets hurt, I think that's pretty compelling.

K O'N

[jjefferies]

How big does a professional club have to be to be self-sustaining, do we think? It depends on the fees and the bills, sure, but how big are most professional clubs? For some reason I'm thinking about 50-70 fencers, but that may be high.
K O'N

I would say that is high. But it depends on what you mean by professional and what state of a club's development you are looking at. First think about the financial model of a club. In my experience the typical economic model for fencing, quite similar to that for other martial arts, is a pyramid structure with a lot of wannabe's funneling in at the bottom. Most drop out or drift on to other interests over a couple of years leaving a hard core at the middle/top. In general children or rather their parents are the ones who pay to keep the club open. You make the most with the least amount of time/energy expended with them and most remain beginners as long as they're in the game. The competitive fencers form your mid-levels and they pay relatively less for the amount of time and energy they consume and then at the very top you have the succesful, competitive elite.These are the people who you invest the most time and energy with and RELATIVELY speaking in terms of what they pay versus what you put into their training, they pay the least. You really can't afford too many but you must have one or two to inspire the others to continue. And it helps a great deal if they are attractive as well as successful.

Regarding numbers and finances the first factor is the coach.
1. Does the coach expect or rather have to make a living off his/her coaching immediately?
2. How knowledgeable is the coach.
3. And this is really loopy, but how charismatic is the coach? I say loopy because it's a a difficult thing to pin down. I know some coaches who are really total ego maniac twits who're making it relatively nicely thank you. While some very decent fellows are struggling. Go figure.

IF the coach is deferring his expectations of financial reward while building up the club then the numbers needed can be very low. At one point my club was down to 2 fencers and the coach training at a local YMCA. Fortunately one of the fencers (not me) was attractive and very athletic and on a competitive track. The coach was knowledgeable and personable and had a day job. As the curmudgeon in residence I lent a hand as sparring dummy and did what I could in trying to help grow the club. Today our senior group is generally 16-20 persons at a regular training session (epee) and in the ups and downs of SF Bay epee we're very competitive (if that's what you mean by professional). There is a smaller foil group and a children/youth group which is perhaps 15. That's perhaps more detail than you are interested in. Point being that the coach is now paid and we're expanding our facility from 2500 sq feet to 4100 sq feet so we can handle a steadily growing club.

Hope this helps.

[noodle]

Perhaps not, but I was considering that they have a lot more options when it comes to layout configurations -- a long room and high ceilings are more necessary for fencers than they are for martial artists.

darius

this is true, but i've seen very few martial arts studios that are *successful* that don't look a lot like fencing salles.

[Phaeton]

A few thoughts:


Entrance costs to fencing:I highly doubt most martial arts require their participants to pay so much so early on in terms of equipment investment.That can be a daunting barrier. I have seen several students drop classes when it was time for them to buy their own equipment. It's not like the cost goes away either. I haven't been fencing this semester, and holy hell, do I have a lot more spending money.

This comes from a lot of things. Lessons, travel, equipment expenses, entry fees, but no doubt about it, for someone who wants to start competing fencing can suddenly get really expensive really fast.

Private Lessons: I am currently learning a bit of Capoeira (which I'm sure FF will rant about not being a MA), and I recently realized that there really isn't the same expectation for private lessons. Really, there isn't any. I was talking to a friend of mine that Kuk Sool and he echoed the same observations.

Private lessons are sometimes the most lucrative (per hour) way a coach can earn money, but it's important striking a balance. Advanced students must be tended to, beginners must have a chance to be brought up, and yet, all at the same time, group classes cannot be neglected because most likely that is what keeps most people in the club. Neglecting group classes can be dangerous and financially crippling. That's where most clubs get most of their dues. I imagine a lot of MA schools have an easier time dealing with volume because private lessons are of not the same (supreme) instructional importance.

Fencing isn't already packaged as a whole system/community/ belief set: I hate classical fencing. Fencing is a sport, purely a sport, and people should leave their weird historical/mystical stuff at the door. That said, this approach loses a lot of people. A lot of people do MA because it "builds character" in a way that is not traditionally athletic, and for a hodgepodge of vaguely new age sounding reasons. We don't have that. Instead we are viewed as a fringe sport, without any sort of special qualities, other than that a lot of nerds and rich people are fencers.

I don't know how to address these issues or if they should be addressed. Fencing is great how it is, and honestly, I don't think changing anything structurally would really help more than it would harm.

[fatfencer]

Phaeton, Capoeira most assuredly IS a martial art.

Sure what they do LOOKS like dancing, but it isnt.

Whether one does Angola(perhaps more martial, perhaps not) or Regional(the more standard version) Capoeira is a fine martial art.

Their fitness level is remarkable and their acrobatics is astounding.

I'm glad you are doing it. I know one fellow who does Angola and he is also a fellow Eskrima practitioner.

Meanwhile I noticed you seeming to agree with me that Fencing is NOT an MA but a sport?

FF

[oiuyt]

Private lessons are sometimes the most lucrative (per hour) way a coach can earn money, but it's important striking a balance.

...

Neglecting group classes can be dangerous and financially crippling. That's where most clubs get most of their dues.

The two quoted statements are inconsistent with each other.

Or rather they should be. Private lessons are sometimes the most lucrative (per hour) way to earn money, but they really shouldn't be. When they are it's an indication that the pricing structure for the classes is way out of whack.

Classes are, per instructor hour, much higher value to the students, which is why they generate more revenue (and are, therefore, of higher value to the club). It's also why neglecting this source can be "financially crippling" to a club and why it's "where most clubs get most of their [revenue]."

-B

[Phaeton]

Phaeton, Capoeira most assuredly IS a martial art.

Sure what they do LOOKS like dancing, but it isnt.

Whether one does Angola(perhaps more martial, perhaps not) or Regional(the more standard version) Capoeira is a fine martial art.

Their fitness level is remarkable and their acrobatics is astounding.

I'm glad you are doing it. I know one fellow who does Angola and he is also a fellow Eskrima practitioner.

Meanwhile I noticed you seeming to agree with me that Fencing is NOT an MA but a sport?

FF

According to your previous observations and definitions, I'm surprised you consider capoeira to be a MA.

Either way, I've a number of observations on my first month and a half of capoeira and what it's made me think of fencing training and movement in general, especially as relates to some of the consequences of my fencing training. This may or not be the place, I'm tired, and will decide if/when to post them later. All I have to say for now is Angola is far too much fun to not be a crime.

Since I've started capoeira my ideas on MA have changed a bit, but I still think my old description is apt.

Combative Sport: Any sport which involves direct combative confrentation of any kind as the sole means to victory.

Self Defense System: Any system of combat which is meant to be used in self defense.

Martial Art: Any combative activity for the sole and direct purpose of historical and traditional reenactment for a spectator audience, a form of performance art.

I would tweak that slightly and add spiritual exercise to martial art (as well as remove the audience requirement), and would like to add that an activity may be multiple of these or none of them, depending on the purpose, how it's taught, etc. (For example TKD)

Honestly, I would like to avoid another "Is fencing an MA" flamefest/circle jerk, but without instigating one (I hope) I would like to add that marketing fencing as an MA seems like a very bad idea to me.

[Phaeton]

The two quoted statements are inconsistent with each other.

Or rather they should be. Private lessons are sometimes the most lucrative (per hour) way to earn money, but they really shouldn't be. When they are it's an indication that the pricing structure for the classes is way out of whack.

Classes are, per instructor hour, much higher value to the students, which is why they generate more revenue (and are, therefore, of higher value to the club). It's also why neglecting this source can be "financially crippling" to a club and why it's "where most clubs get most of their [revenue]."

-B

Wherein lies th problem.

Let me clarify: In a small club that needs to grow (especially in a club that has very few members) private lessons may have a much higher pay rate than classes (due to a small number of students). Large clubs, in order to be healthy need a good balance of both (and luckily can often employ multiple coaches to cover each other to allow for optimum amounts of lesson and class time.)

It's hard getting caught inbetween. But it's a balance issue for most clubs/camps/etc that I've been to. Private lessons often directly affect the demand for group classes. It works both ways.

Ok. Now I'm going to bed. really.

[Allen Evans]

Private lessons are sometimes the most lucrative (per hour) way a coach can earn money, but it's important striking a balance.

I think most coaches know (or should know) that private lessons are actually the worst use of their time from a financial point of view.

However, most fencing students expect a club to offer some level of private instruction to their fencers. Especially if the fencer has had experiance at other clubs, their expectation is that individual lessons with a coach are available, and that can be a powerful expectation to thwart (unless the coach has brought their fencers up without this expectation).

Many coaches do not have the skills to structure group classes for higher level students. Designing a class/group routine for a group of skilled students is pretty challenging, and -- again -- many students are not used to (and don't expect to) learn fencing skills in a group setting. When group classes are done poorly, the club loses membership, and money.

Costs are another story. Fencing is (mostly) underpriced in a lot of areas of the country. Many martial arts studios have very large fees, force you to buy uniforms and any equipment through them, and so forth. Fencing isn't cheap, but some of the martial arts schools I have visited have prices that really surprised me, when the only service they offered was essentially an aerobics class with a little bit of yelling.

Some of the rest of your points I agree with, especially in the cultural/social/philosophical baggage that most martial arts studios bring (or fake) to their business.

A

[Phaeton]

However, most fencing students expect a club to offer some level of private instruction to their fencers. Especially if the fencer has had experiance at other clubs, their expectation is that individual lessons with a coach are available, and that can be a powerful expectation to thwart (unless the coach has brought their fencers up without this expectation).

Many coaches do not have the skills to structure group classes for higher level students. Designing a class/group routine for a group of skilled students is pretty challenging, and -- again -- many students are not used to (and don't expect to) learn fencing skills in a group setting. When group classes are done poorly, the club loses membership, and money.

You phrased my private lesson point better than I could have myself. There have been times when I left clubs with perfectly good group/combative practice in order to go to ones with solid privates.

Keeping a top layer of fencers is important for prestige, bragging rights, and the health of the club, and that can't be done w/o significant time devoted to privates.

(Awaits snickers at use of privates. Or some military joke. )

[Ken Mondschein]

Fencing used to be taught entirely through private lessons. It also incorporated a whole set of beliefs and norms. It was also preparation for personal combat (the duel). It doesn't and isn't any more. Then again, we don't live in 19th century France.

[jjefferies]

A few thoughts:
Fencing isn't already packaged as a whole system/community/ belief set: I hate classical fencing. Fencing is a sport, purely a sport, and people should leave their weird historical/mystical stuff at the door. That said, this approach loses a lot of people. A lot of people do MA because it "builds character" in a way that is not traditionally athletic, and for a hodgepodge of vaguely new age sounding reasons. We don't have that. Instead we are viewed as a fringe sport, without any sort of special qualities, other than that a lot of nerds and rich people are fencers.

I would tweak that slightly and add spiritual exercise to martial art (as well as remove the audience requirement), and would like to add that an activity may be multiple of these or none of them, depending on the purpose, how it's taught, etc. (For example TKD)

Seems to me that Phaeton is of two minds that aren't quite agreeing with each other. Leave the history and all the associated baggage behind or add spiritual exercise? I would argue that olympic fencing clubs leave way too much of the sport's history and therefore knowledge of both the physical and spiritual nature behind. Perhaps other MA's are more successful in incorporating their historical knowledge/basis and thus are more successful. My gut feeling is that there is a great unfilled void out there in terms of knowledge of self that most olympic fencing clubs are ignoring. And whether it is the Do or the Destreza the bottom line is the commonality of human experience east and west as expressed with the sword as the metric. Filling such a void pulls people in. Put it down as a marketing come on or whatever. The big problem with trying to fill that need is that most coaches simply don't know the history of the sport(s) that modern fencing is derived from or just as likely don't respect it as being a part of the sport. It could be a major attractor for fencing though. Further such knowledge doesn't have to have been in the past. Olympic fencing is a/the western martial art. But it is still developing as well as refining.

I think most coaches know (or should know) that private lessons are actually the worst use of their time from a financial point of view.
A

Not sure what you mean. Could you illustrate this a bit. It seems to me that we do group lesson simply because of time/space limitations. But why would one on one be "worst use of their time from a financial" POV?

[Phaeton]

Seems to me that Phaeton is of two minds that aren't quite agreeing with each other. Leave the history and all the associated baggage behind or add spiritual exercise? I would argue that olympic fencing clubs leave way too much of the sport's history and therefore knowledge of both the physical and spiritual nature behind.

Maybe one day I'll learn how to write lucidly while tired.

What I meant to say is that I would like to add spirituality to my definition of a martial art. I do not think that spirituality should be added to fencing; I do not think that fencing is a martial art. I think it is a combative sport. I think that spirituality, and all that fuzzy stuff doesn't belong in the salle.

[Allen Evans]

Not sure what you mean. Could you illustrate this a bit. It seems to me that we do group lesson simply because of time/space limitations. But why would one on one be "worst use of their time from a financial" POV?

I'm very concerned at your question.

Consider 45 minutes of a coaches time, which is roughly two lessons, at, say, 30 dollars a lesson:

2 x 30 = $60

Now consider the same 45 minutes with a class of 15 people who are paying $150 a month for an 8 session class. Each session, then, makes about $18.75 per person for the coach. (150 / 8 = $18.75 ):

15 x 18.75 = $281.25

For the same 45 minutes of work. You'd have to charge about $140 a lesson to make the same amount of money teaching privately.

Of course, there is an initial outlay of equipment for classes, but those costs are spread out over several years of use (if you're properly depreciating your equipment).