Fie suspends requirement for visor masks for foil

[Grasshopper]

3 people on SEMI are good friends of mine. I'm sure they'll get to the bottom of this.

Does SEMI mean these guys?

http://www.semi.org/eu/index.htm

Because these guys are experts in semiconducters and electronics, not Lexan. I would hire them to test my hard drive, but not my Lexan mask.

[Grasshopper]

This website that showed up on the UK board (http://www.musketeer.org/safety/mask-punch.html) makes me glad a tester has never been anywhere near my mask.

I clicked on your link to find this quote which made me roll on the floor and laugh my a$$ off. (Or simply ROTFLMAO)

"If you think your mask has been failed due to a mistake, you must appeal the decision in the USFA immediately to the bout committee. In the SCA, through the marshallate command-chain. That usually means to the regional or kingdom fencing marshal."

[Gav]

:O

THAT was from a SCA site?

[Grasshopper]

One mask to rule them all!!!

[erik_blank]

I clicked on your link to find this quote which made me roll on the floor and laugh my a$$ off. (Or simply ROTFLMAO)

"If you think your mask has been failed due to a mistake, you must appeal the decision in the USFA immediately to the bout committee. In the SCA, through the marshallate command-chain. That usually means to the regional or kingdom fencing marshal."

SCA... and yet it was a pretty good writeup on how to punch test a mask... Of course I haven't seen a marshal at a USFA event in some time!

[I_luv_saber]

Okay, I can understand the concept of trade-offs but I'm missing the details of the trade here. Assuming that trading "a little safety" is a good idea, what are we getting in return in exchange for safety?

Keep in mind some people actually like the masks. Ask them what they feel the benefits are. My use is very limited with them, just trying a friends once or twice.

I could see an argument made for more clear vision... however the blind spots from the little metal strips I disliked. But that's why I think it should be up to the choice of the fencer...

Hmmm, I don't think we're going to agree on this point. However, whether the two are similar or not is not all that salient. Let's agree to disagree on this point.

I don't see how... the two are strikingly similar. Both are materials sensitive to mishandling and both can cause extreme injury from their sudden failure. But, as you wish...

I'm advocating a temporary ban on lexan masks until the results of the investigation have been published. I totally agree that this is akin to people not swimming in the ocean for fear of sharks. If a shark attacks a swimmer at a beach, then it would be normal to temporarily ban swimming at that beach. If later we discover that the swimmer was a fault, then we stop blaming the shark.

This deep into detail the analogy doesn't really stick. For a single incident, beaches are shut down for a very short period of time, generally...

My point is, it's an overreaction to ban their use from a single incident. When that plastron failed not too long ago, I don't recall a ban (even on that particular brand) being issued, no? Failures happen. This reeks of knee-jerk reaction to me - at the expense of fencers.

[Inquartata]

I've fenced at multiple world cups and a junior world championship and I don't think my mask has ever had a punch test on it.

So, why do all of the European equipment vendors sell the punch-testers?

If my experience at the Vet Worlds is any indication, your equipment gets taken away and submitted to control en masse. If the events you've fenced have been like this, how would you even know if your mask had been punch-tested or not when it was out of your possession?

You Euro people are nuts, really. You insist on 800N FIE gear for every fencer, then go all nonchalant about safety testing any of it!

[Gav]

So, why do all of the European equipment vendors sell the punch-testers?

If my experience at the Vet Worlds is any indication, your equipment gets taken away and submitted to control en masse. If the events you've fenced have been like this, how would you even know if your mask had been punch-tested or not when it was out of your possession?

Because Downunder has been to more FIE nominated events than you?

You Euro people are nuts, really. You insist on 800N FIE gear for every fencer, then go all nonchalant about safety testing any of it!

This is not true.

[downunder]

So, why do all of the European equipment vendors sell the punch-testers?

I've never seen one actually physically on display, and I've seen a lot of displays. I don't know what it looks like beyond that 15 year old document.

If my experience at the Vet Worlds is any indication, your equipment gets taken away and submitted to control en masse. If the events you've fenced have been like this, how would you even know if your mask had been punch-tested or not when it was out of your possession?

world champs are different to world cups/GPs. From my experiance as a fencer and a referee at world cup events mask inspections are a visual look over at a table.

You Euro people are nuts, really. You insist on 800N FIE gear for every fencer, then go all nonchalant about safety testing any of it!

I think you guys are nuts by at one end having no standards for clothing then at the other subjecting non-FIE masks with inherently weaker mesh to a top tier FIE test that will degrade the metal over time

[pillow]

I've never seen one actually physically on display, and I've seen a lot of displays. I don't know what it looks like beyond that 15 year old document.



world champs are different to world cups/GPs. From my experiance as a fencer and a referee at world cup events mask inspections are a visual look over at a table.



I think you guys are nuts by at one end having no standards for clothing then at the other subjecting non-FIE masks with inherently weaker mesh to a top tier FIE test that will degrade the metal over time

I would rather subject an FIE mask or a non-FIE mask to any type of testing, regardless if it MAY degrade the mesh (which I doubt ) than to use a Lexan mask that could fail for currently unknown reasons.

[dberke]

I think you guys are nuts by at one end having no standards for clothing then at the other subjecting non-FIE masks with inherently weaker mesh to a top tier FIE test that will degrade the metal over time

Hits to the mask with a blade also degrade the metal over time. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather discover that the mask is near failure when an armoror is punch-testing rather than when I'm on-strip and a blade hits my mask with my head in it. If my mask (FIE or otherwise) can't handle a periodic punch test, I'm pretty sure it can't handle a blade impact either.

I've always had my FIE masks tested, with no worries.

Dan

[Inquartata]

So, I wonder whether there is any data showing that masks last longer in Europe than in the US...

[kalivor]

So, I wonder whether there is any data showing that masks last longer in Europe than in the US...

Or fail with greater frequency ...

[Purple Fencer]

Or fail with greater frequency ...

The data might be skewed, however, since FIE is required in Europe compared to the US, and I would expect a non-FIE mask to fail more frequently than an FIE.

You'd have to restrict the information sample from the US side entirely to FIE masks with roughly the same amount of use as their Euro counterparts to get a reliable set of stats.

On the other hand, if you DID include non-FIEs and the overall failure rate was similar to Euro FIEs, would that not imply that the mask punch does NOT shorten the lifespan??

[kalivor]

The data might be skewed, however, since FIE is required in Europe compared to the US, and I would expect a non-FIE mask to fail more frequently than an FIE.

You'd have to restrict the information sample from the US side entirely to FIE masks with roughly the same amount of use as their Euro counterparts to get a reliable set of stats.

On the other hand, if you DID include non-FIEs and the overall failure rate was similar to Euro FIEs, would that not imply that the mask punch does NOT shorten the lifespan??

Of course it would. If we are not doing a like-for-like comparison, we would expect the population with the lower standard masks to have a higher rate of failure. If it does not, it seems likely that testing the masks does not make them into a safety hazard -- or, at least, that even if it does shorten the life of a mask, it ensures they often get retired before failing.

On the other hand, if the European masks are safer it would say nothing, because we already expect the data to be skewed that way.

Perhaps a better comparison would be US to UK, as the UK does not use the FIE mask standard and does not punch test masks.

That said, I don't think the data sets we're looking for exist, or would be easy to collect.

My personal feeling is that the punch test should be used to confirm whether or not questionable-looking mesh is safe or not, and that too many mask checks are done by those who don't know how to do them properly. I can't count the number of times I've had to snatch my mask away from someone who started to wiggle the tester around, or didn't bother to put their thumb over the hole ...