NAC C, Pittsburgh

[bigfirststep]

I don't know exactly what type of evidence you need.

Logic would conclude that athletic performance would also improve with later start times.
.

If a recent NYT article is to be believed, it seems everyone performs better in the afternoon:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/he...ernoonn&st=cse

Another advantage those damn east coasters have in tournaments...

[seven6ty]

Sure, it's a bit harder for fencers from the west coast that have to go east.

That's a bit of an understatement. Having to wake up at 3am, in your native timezone, and be fencing by 5am, isn't easy or great for anyone.

[dberke]

That's a bit of an understatement. Having to wake up at 3am, in your native timezone, and be fencing by 5am, isn't easy or great for anyone.

That's true, but it's hardly a surprise. Since we know that we'll have to do this for morning events, it isn't unreasonable to plan ahead - such as adjusting your sleep patterns for the few days before the event. Or, as the veteran fencers have figured out, fly in two days before your event and acclimate yourself to the timezone over that extra day.

While I agree it would be great if NAC events ran from 11am to 11pm rather than 8am to 8pm, I don't think it's logisticaly possible - most convention centers charge extra for hours past a certain time (when they'd have to pay security and maintenance staff overtime) as well as the problem of finding food (for fencers and officials) that late at night...

Dan

[catwood1]

That's a bit of an understatement. Having to wake up at 3am, in your native timezone, and be fencing by 5am, isn't easy or great for anyone.

As Andrew at some point said, if the goal of NACs is to prepare our athletes for international competition, they should get used to it here, rather than when competing internationally in Europe.

[Peach]

As Andrew at some point said, if the goal of NACs is to prepare our athletes for international competition, they should get used to it here, rather than when competing internationally in Europe.

I am never quite convinced that inconvenience is any kind of meaningful preparation for other inconveniences. It reminds me of the argument for giving final exams to sixth graders, or homework to kindergarteners. It's sort of an "initiation rite" idea, the function of which is merely to make people value the process simply because by gum it has indeed been uncomfortable and they have indeed survived it.

[catwood1]

There is also the argument that NACs are qualifying events. We should try and simulate the international experiance to see how they will react to it. Obviously, we shouldn't host events at 3am just to make it harder, but I think simulating the same experience they will have in more important events is worthwhile for team selection to some extent.

I'm not saying this is the most important thing, but it does seem like a reason to not go out of our way to change the times.

[seven6ty]

There is also the argument that NACs are qualifying events. We should try and simulate the international experiance to see how they will react to it. Obviously, we shouldn't host events at 3am just to make it harder, but I think simulating the same experience they will have in more important events is worthwhile for team selection to some extent.

I'm not saying this is the most important thing, but it does seem like a reason to not go out of our way to change the times.

In regards to tournament structure and quality of fencing, I absolutely agree. We should get as close to the real thing as possible.

But, using this logic to try and justify getting used to fencing at 5am makes little to no sense. Especially for events that draw 1,000-2,000 people over the course of a weekend, and you consider that probably less than 30 of those people will regularly be competing in major international tournaments, with the type of international travel you're talking about. The majority of participants, vast majority even... Are people who are skipping out of work or school, and have to keep their absences to a minimum. In major international tournaments people are more likely to arrive a number of days in advance, and get used to the local timezone difference.

[catwood1]

I don't mean it should be a primary concern, but I think it is a significant mitigating factor when looking at the problem.

Granted, if they wanted to make all east coast start times 10am, and all central time zone starts 9am, I wouldn't be complaining. But then again, I'm young, and am biologically suited to be waking up later and staying up later.

[Peach]

Couple thoughts:

--As dberke and seven6ty say, when I'm competing internationally, I arrive early and acclimatize so that I'm synced with the local time. My performance matters to me, so much so that I'm willing to sacrifice in order to do well. Part of what I sacrifice is my performance at my job for the next week or so afterwards

--The argument that getting people used to competing in the early hours has value for international competition only works for those who normally live on the West Coast. I don't think we're trying to build a competitive cadre solely made up of those on Pacific Standard Time.

[flechewounds]

There is also the argument that NACs are qualifying events. We should try and simulate the international experiance to see how they will react to it. Obviously, we shouldn't host events at 3am just to make it harder, but I think simulating the same experience they will have in more important events is worthwhile for team selection to some extent.

I'm not saying this is the most important thing, but it does seem like a reason to not go out of our way to change the times.

On the other hand, if we had the first close-of-registration at 3am, we could actually run a full 6 weapon, 3 age group event in two days Plus, think of all the money we'd save on ref/bc per diems and fees...

3-12 (shift 1)
12-9 (shift 2)

you can fence one event in each shift...

sounds like a real money-saver !!!!

[catwood1]

On the other hand, if we had the first close-of-registration at 3am, we could actually run a full 6 weapon, 3 age group event in two days Plus, think of all the money we'd save on ref/bc per diems and fees...

3-12 (shift 1)
12-9 (shift 2)

you can fence one event in each shift...

sounds like a real money-saver !!!!

Hmm, that only leaves from 9pm until 3am for off time. Thats 6 hours of hanging out time for refs.

Post reffing shower / change clothes
Drinking
Sleeping
...shenanigans*
Sober up before morning

Definitely can't get all 4 of those done in 6 hours. Which ones do YOU think the refs will pick to skip?

*Lets leave it at that.

[fdad]

Hmm, that only leaves from 9pm until 3am for off time. Thats 6 hours of hanging out time for refs.

Post reffing shower / change clothes
Drinking
Sleeping
...shenanigans*
Sober up before morning

Definitely can't get all 4 of those done in 6 hours. Which ones do YOU think the refs will pick to skip?

*Lets leave it at that.

I don't think they are all doing "Post reffing shower / change clothes" and "Sober up before morning" now.

[Inquartata]

Or sleeping, either. Unless you count passing out as sleeping...