I'm just returning to fencing after a 20 year hiatus. I trained with foil for 4 years, but now the opportunity for this comeback is with épée. Very surprising to me, after all this time I still have some strong reflexes. One of them is to always go for the foils target, of course, but another one is to not to watch for being hit on the hand or wrist. I'm getting murdered there. Not on a stop hit, but on a clean lunge attack. So I decided to study it, provoking those attacks for me to try a few things. When he's coming from below, I've tried a counter-sixte parry, which doesn't work that well, I figured it was too slow a parry. So I tried octave, low and wide, which parries fair, but I can't get a riposte in. Now I'm juggling with the idea of going seconde + step forward and going high while trying to keep the blade + riposte to the knee of foot. Is that a viable plan? Or maybe I'm just should not mess with that at the moment and just keep it at bay with distance? Say, what do you do against a flick on the wrist from below?
First off: put your hand in the right place. It's different than where's ideal for foil. Check this one with a coach-- there are just too many planes for me to describe it well.
Second: Distance Distance Distance. A couple inches is the diference beteween a flick to wrist landing on, or landing flat. And since it's your *hand*, you can move it.
Third: Are any of these doubles?? You remember about doubles, right? This is a hard instinct to train if you're used to right of way.
Fourth: talk to a coach about parries. It's likely your counterattacks are going to lag for a while as you train the ROW out of your system, and useful epee parries are not universally the same as useful foil parries. It may be easier to replace better parries than avoid needing them in the short run, although both are important in the long run.
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I think it's probably more of your foil roots and your instinctual parries. I'd guess that more than anything, you're getting hit in the hand so much because you are opening the hand/forearm target wide open, and I'd guess you tend to take your 4's with your hand close to your chest, and a similarly wide action for your 6's. (Something that is a BIG no-no in epee.) You sound like you're trying to remedy the problem of getting hit in the hand with more parries, but I think it would do you good to do a few bouts where you do almost no parries at all... Use the bout to get you thinking about straight attacks and taking the most direct approach to the target. Take the time to watch your hand in the mirror and run through a few of your common attacks. I'm pretty sure you'll be very surprised with how wide your actions are, and how often you open your hand up.
Not to mention, once you have a great instinct for straight attacks, then it's great to practice hitting with angulation, to work around the opponent's bell guard, and to use a bit of opposition in your hits to close out your opponent's attacks. Another key to epee fencing is very much to use your bell guard in your parries and attacks... An almost non-existent element to foil fencing. In epee, your parries should only be just wide enough to clear your opponent's tip to the side of your own target, giving your point the most efficient line to their own target area.
Epee is very much a game of economy, and one of the best ways to practice this is to cut out any excessive parries you're doing, and to use your bell guard to keep your hand and forearm covered at practically all times. Once you can win a bout with very simplistic straight attacks and counter attacks, only then would I say it's a good idea to get into perfecting the mechanics of your parries and other fancy stuff.
And with flicks, I've always found that the simplest defense is to simply move your bell guard in the direction that the flick is coming from. I notice that flicks over the guard are one of the most common flick attacks, and it's always been simple enough for me to raise my hand up, as the flick starts to come up and out, and by the time they try to reach over the guard for the flick, it's already high enough that the target has been taken away from them. Same approach goes for flicks over, under and around the guard.
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Bazul, the best time for 1-on-1, quality coaching is twenty years ago, the 2nd best time is now... Well. That and planting trees.
But honestly, now would be a good time to get some personal lessons, train in some nice habits, and gather some contemporary theory.
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epeelion: That would be riposte on the foot or knee, right? And what is an "indirect riposte" exactly?
MyrddinsPrecint: No, just straight attacks - that's why it's so annoying. I still have some ROW reflexes. My psychological way around it for now is to act as a very delinquent foil fencer and, I must admit, I'm getting a kind a kick out of that. But it probably comes with some caveats, such as wrong hand placement.
seven6ty: Thank you for your comprehensive response. A lot of things there: hand too close to the chest (I knew it was right as soon as I read it), bouts with no parry other than bell guard movement, economy of movement, using angulation (I so rarely done that). I'm on it.
foibles: Coaching is hard to find here. This is a small town club, with quite decent ranked épée fencers, efficient combatants but not trained as coach and only versed in épée. I got myself some books and I'm planning on doing week-end training camps in the big city. Meanwhile, I have fencing.net!
I second the opinion that hand position is the most important factor here.
En Guard in epee is different to that in foil. The arm needs to be at a position where it is protected from the opponents point by the bell guard.
Imre Vass, Epee Fencing speaks quite a lot about the cone of protection offered from the point to the guard. The protection needs to be maintained through the action. Imagine how your arm looks to your opponent, if it can be seen, it can be hit. Unless that is your intention (to invite), you need to stay covered. Practice your guard and extension in a mirror to keep your arm covered.
In my opinion you will also find that the extension should be different than that in foil and the sequence is also a little different. The extension should generally be higher, and complete before the lunge.
When I was taught foil in the 80's the extension was with the lunge. In epee the extension needs to be complete before the lunge. so that you are covered more completely against a counter attack.
I'm just returning to fencing after a 20 year hiatus. I trained with foil for 4 years, but now the opportunity for this comeback is with épée. Very surprising to me, after all this time I still have some strong reflexes. One of them is to always go for the foils target, of course, but another one is to not to watch for being hit on the hand or wrist. I'm getting murdered there. Not on a stop hit, but on a clean lunge attack. So I decided to study it, provoking those attacks for me to try a few things. When he's coming from below, I've tried a counter-sixte parry, which doesn't work that well, I figured it was too slow a parry. So I tried octave, low and wide, which parries fair, but I can't get a riposte in. Now I'm juggling with the idea of going seconde + step forward and going high while trying to keep the blade + riposte to the knee of foot. Is that a viable plan? Or maybe I'm just should not mess with that at the moment and just keep it at bay with distance? Say, what do you do against a flick on the wrist from below?
As others have mentioned your hand is too high. And, by the sounds of things, you're trying to attack with a "chopping" action. That action would've been reasonably common back in the day (for extreme flicks).
So if your opponent is coming in from below and hitting your hand/wrist I would put money that what's happening is that they are putting their point in the right place (method of delivery is unimportant) and you are doing the rest.
That's probably why you're getting so frustrated; because your basic instinct is telling you to bring your hand down and forwards... You need to be patient and work on dealing with that.
You need to drop your hand down so that your forearm is almost parallel to the floor. Keep a slight upward slope to your arm and maintain your point so that is is just above your guard. That's your basic guard covered and you should find it reasonably easy to keep yourself covered with whichever parry is required.
Don't forget to move your feet.
PS. On your tactical responses. I am not sure. If someone tries a poke at my hand then I take an octave. If I have the blade then they get stuffed. If they disengage then it's easy to bring your point back up to sixte for a block. Or take a counter. Depends on distance.
PPS. On flicks from below. I can't say that I've ever had a problem with them. Nor have I really seen them. Mostly because the upward motion is so much slower (weaker too) than the the downward motion you normally get with a coupé.
Does where you train have a mirror? If so, try practicing footwork with your weapon in you hand looking into the mirror. Pay special attention to the position of your hand, keeping in mind what others have suggested to you in this post. When you are in enguard you should not see any (or very little) of your hand or arm behind the bell guard. Work on training yourself into this position and moving through your parries and extensions with economy of movement, exposing as little of your hand and arm as possible.
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MyrddinsPrecint: No, just straight attacks - that's why it's so annoying. I still have some ROW reflexes. My psychological way around it for now is to act as a very delinquent foil fencer and, I must admit, I'm getting a kind a kick out of that. But it probably comes with some caveats, such as wrong hand placement.
They attack your hand--- you attack their hand. If your hand is within a mile of where it ought to be, in order for them to hit your wrist/hand, somewhere on their wrist/hand is probably vulnerable. If they're underneath, you can hit on top, etc. If they can hit your hand without being at least a little open, you are DEFINITELY in the wrong place.
If coaching is as scarce as you suggest, my suggestion is this: Stand engarde. Have a friend try to hit you on hand/wrist. Don't move, just stand there while they poke at you. Move your hand around. Determine where they can hit you easily when your hand is in different places. When you find the place where they have a very hard time hitting you without doing weird leaning things, that's a better place to keep your hand than where it's been.
But yeah, when you travel for coaching, I would have the coach
*work on where your hand ought to be
*explain the philosophy and mechanics of epee parries
*COUNTERATTACKS
Some people/coaches will suggest that counterattacks should be first, and I don't exactly disagree, other than the fact that where your hand is is obviously a big problem for you, and you're going to attempt to parry anyway so you might as well have a basic understanding of what you're going to try to do anyway.
(Note: I switched from sabre to epee a while back)
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shlepzig: I've seen this book (Vass) when shopping, but it didn't make my list. I might just correct that. I think you're right, something fundamental about the guard position. I am now invading my 12 year old daughter's quarters to use her big mirror - she seems OK with that, but she does frown.
Gav: I was not under the impression that I got stop hits on me (if I understand correctly what you are saying). Or may be not... maybe on preparation, but very early and so dead on time. Am I that easy to read? Mmm. I'll see tomorrow. On Octave: that's what I thought, but somehow I can't make it work. Maybe I don't get enough blade and, as you say, getting back on Sixte would at least keep me in the game. For the moment I'll follow seven6ty's advice and do bouts with less parries and more stop hits and counterattacks.
MyrddinsPrecint: A hand for a hand, I tried that but the wrist/forearm as a target is still so alien to me (because of foil) that my opponent has the psychological advantage. I don't feel confident that I can land there at will. So, when I have spare minutes I'm pseudo training poking and lunging at door knobs, they are small, round and just about the good height - my daughter thinks I'm getting weirder everyday.
Attach a golf ball to a string. Hit that instead of doorknobs (among other things, it's kinder to your weapon). once you can do that with reasonable accuracy, switch to a golf ball on a string.
You don't ALWAYS have to hit the hand/wrist for it to be useful. If your opponent knows they can fish for it for a little while and you won't try to hit them, they'll take some time. If they know you're at least going to try to hit them, they may be a bit more careful.
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I am now invading my 12 year old daughter's quarters to use her big mirror - she seems OK with that, but she does frown.
It's okay, kids that age are frowning most of the time anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazule
MyrddinsPrecint: A hand for a hand, I tried that but the wrist/forearm as a target is still so alien to me (because of foil) that my opponent has the psychological advantage. I don't feel confident that I can land there at will.
Here's another bit of epee wisdom... Good epee fencers are rarely planning, or specifically trying, to hit the hand. In epee, a hand hit is usually considered a lucky touch, and second intention drills (and more advanced drills), will almost always start out with a pick to the hand/forearm as a setup, or preparation - in foil speak. The intent is almost never to count on hitting with this opening attack, but instead, to attempt hitting the closest target on the first action (the hand), perhaps throw in a beat/parry with hit to the upper arm, and then finish with a deeper flesche attack to the body when all else fails.
The point being, any time that you try to execute a hit to the upper body in epee, your tip should be going from one target to the next, always trying to find the target the least distance away. So when you are lining up your hit, you are first thinking of hitting the hand, if you go past that, hit the inside of the elbow, if you go past that, hit the bicep, if you go past that, make sure to land your point in their chest.
-This process should always involve your tip moving forward, and almost never pulling your hand back. (Even when parrying) Also, particularly if you try for either the hand or lower half of the arm, you tend to aim for that area and if you miss, your point is coming in at too much of an angle and goes on into empty space, instead of being lined up with the rest of your opponent's body.
So, in essence, you should practically *always* be trying to line up your hit on your opponent's hand, but never *plan* on that attack getting you a point. Be prepared to run your tip from their hand, to their arm, and finally, if you miss all of those, the chest.
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Well, it worked! Improved engarde position, using the bell guard, less parries, stop hits and counterattacks. I was hit only ONCE on the hand today! My score almost doubled compared to last week. Got a few in the arm though.
Seven6ty: Because of practice today, I understand perfectly what you mean, I was thinking along the same lines coming back home. Now that I have the hand in a safe place, he went after my arm, and what next?, will he go after my shoulder, then my chest... It's very clear to me now that he's doing what your saying. He did not do a target change, he just followed his sequence. May be I wasn't experienced enough in foil; I was decently adequate with composed attacks, but I don't recall much about second intention. But, yes, since in epee the target is so complex and has quite a presence in the z-axis, why go after one spot? Go after a forward trajectory, then you increase the chances of something good happening. It still is a bit mysterious, but I'll get to it. For example, in order to do that in a strict sort of way, wouldn't you have to attack from the quarte position (if the opponent is engarde in sixte) for the point to always remain in line with a likely target - lunging from quarte sounds awkward.
MyrddinsPrecint: Great idea! Now golf balls will be useful in winter. I also have some 2 in and 3 in PVC tubing leftover from a plumbing project (I've been renovating my holds house for years), and I am toying with the idea to use that to make a mannequin like structure to practice on.
shlepzig: I said Vass's book didn't make my list, but I was wrong. It was out of stock at Amazon so I ordered it from Vanderbilt, but forgot about it. The book arrived today.
MyrddinsPrecint: Great idea! Now golf balls will be useful in winter. I also have some 2 in and 3 in PVC tubing leftover from a plumbing project (I've been renovating my holds house for years), and I am toying with the idea to use that to make a mannequin like structure to practice on.
I reread my last post... I, uh, well, meant to suggest you can try a tennis ball before the golf ball. I find the golf ball more satisfying, but if you find it frustrating at first, try either the tennis ball or just a more brightly colored golf ball.
Using pvc as a base to create a more realistic target is helpful. There are plenty of threads (some more useful than others) about the subject-- try searching things like "fencing dummy" and other related terms until you get somewhere.
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First off: put your hand in the right place. It's different than where's ideal for foil. Check this one with a coach-- there are just too many planes for me to describe it well.
Very true!
To test if your hand is in the right position, find a mirror and do the following in the order indicated:
1. Stand in front of it with your epee in hand.
2. Close your eyes.
3. Assume an En Guarde position.
4. Open your eyes.
Is your hand or forearm visible to you in the mirror or is it hidden behind the bell guard? If it is visible to you in a mirror, it is visible (and hitable) to your opponent. Adjust your hand/arm position until you can perform the above exercise and NOT see your forearm in the mirror.
Also, is your epee blade pointing at your opponent or is it pointing up in the air (like some folks do with a foil)?
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Last edited by parrythis; 11-05-2009 at 11:15 AM..
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