Seems like the size of the visor could be a little smaller but not much as the frame would interfere with vision more than it already does. Given the speed and force that a foil tip could impact a lexan visor, increasing the visor thickness is likely the only way to prevent this kind of accident. How thick can the visors be before vision is impaired?
Seems like the size of the visor could be a little smaller but not much as the frame would interfere with vision more than it already does. Given the speed and force that a foil tip could impact a lexan visor, increasing the visor thickness is likely the only way to prevent this kind of accident. How thick can the visors be before vision is impaired?
Folks: It is NOT JUST the thickness of the material that is in question here, but the act that Polycarbonate (Lexan) becomes susceptible to catastrophic failure due to surface scratches and nicks. The very thing that happens through normal use in regular fencing, especialy saber and epee where the mask is target. Add into that the fact that the material is also degraded by Volatile Organic Chemicals (VOC's: read as any hydrocarbons, oils, acetone, etc) and the combination is just BEGGING to have what is supposed to be a safety item turn into flying shards of plastic as seen here.
From what was described in the Eng-Tips web site, this material at the least should have a wearing surface on the outside and a seal coat on the inside of it to prevent nicks and scrapes from creating stress points and an overall protective coating to provide chemical resistance.
As I am learning through this thread, not all plastics are made the same, and this particular one seems to be particularly wrong for this application when used alone.
"Rub her feet!" - Lazarus Long, Time enough for Love, Robert A. Heinlein
From the info I'm now getting, the shields must be made to CE standards for the sport (which are tougher than FIE standards)...Dos Santos didn't feel those standards needed to be included in the rulebook....now we just have to FIND those standards and see what they say.
That's why the care instructions include carrying them aboard by hand.
It is not just the care instructions, it is in the part of the rule book that very few people read, the appendix.
- To avoid degrading the polycarbonate, all contact with chemical
agents that can damage the material must be prevented; in particular,
any presence of PVC is unacceptable.
— The mask should be kept in a protective bag and it is desirable to
avoid putting the mask in the fencing bag (and hence in the aircraft
hold) during airplane journeys, but rather to keep it in hand
luggage.
Do any of you use tubing for your blades or ever put your mask in your bag. If you use a mesh mask you don't need to worry about these two things. The appendix is also where they have the rule for protection of the men or I should say recomendation.
Originally Posted by Purple Fencer
From the info I'm now getting, the shields must be made to CE standards for the sport (which are tougher than FIE standards)...Dos Santos didn't feel those standards needed to be included in the rulebook....now we just have to FIND those standards and see what they say.
Yes Sam to pass the mask, it must first go through CE standards. BUT that is to test the ORIGINAL visor.
What is to stop a fencer to obtaining a REPLACEMENT visor that is made to the Fencing Rulebook specifications. There is NOTHING in the Fencing Rulebook to require the Replacement visor meet the specifications of the Original. There is Nothing in the Rulebook that would let the Armorer know if this was made by the manufacturer. So it doesn't matter what CE specifications are for replacement visors.
As the materials people at the Eng-tips web site have stated, the idea of temperature cycling reducing the strength of PC is a MYTH. While it is possible for the strength of PC to degrade at extremely cold temperatures (from the postings it is pretty clear that they are referring to temps well below what would be found in airline storage containers), the material resumes its properties when it returns to room temperature.
After reading the requirements as posted by DHCjr I would have to say that the appendix is not concerned with temperature, but with damage from mishandling of the bags by baggage handlers.
Here's a question for the armorers: Are you currently failing plastic masks if they are overly scratched/chipped? is there a consensus about what is/is not acceptible level of damage before rejecting a PC mask?
Last edited by erik_blank; 11-11-2009 at 03:29 PM.
"Rub her feet!" - Lazarus Long, Time enough for Love, Robert A. Heinlein
Here's a question for the armorers: Are you currently failing plastic masks if they are overly scratched/chipped? is there a consensus about what is/is not acceptible level of damage before rejecting a PC mask?
No....because there's no way to test it like there is with the punch on the mesh. if I saw a crack, that's a fail...but there're no guidelines I know of re scratches or chips....past a judgment call by the armorer doing the check, that is.
Fortunately for me, I don't see that many of them....there's one guy in Orange Coast who uses one for foil and epee, and some of the sabeurs use them, but the vast majority I see locally are full mesh. Folks who work more national level events would be able to give you a better answer.
@ donald....is it possible that the rules re replacing with a visor from the same vendor are in the CE guidelines and not the rulebook? I need to see if I can find those.
Sam, it would only be for the original certification of the mask. Even if they did have something specific on replacement visor, how could you tell that they replaced it with a visor from the manufacturer?
I can tell you where you can get the Certification Manual, but do you have over $250 that you don't need.
If you go to www.cen.eu you can find out that the standards for fencers equipment is EN 13567:2002+A1:2007. They just list what the publication numbers are. Here is a answer to a question on where to get them.
Where can I purchase CEN publications and drafts?
CEN does not sell or distribute standards. All CEN (draft) publications can be purchased from any of our National Members and some of our Affiliates.
The urgent letter states that the requirement is suspended for Foil. Why are you talking about Sabre?
Possibly you could explain why anyone would think that a mask design which may not be safe for foil is perfectly peachy to keep using for sabre?
People DO use the point in sabre, you know. And those tips have edges, not flat, rounded, spring-loaded points. And cuts are much more apt to scratch up a visor than the occasional accidental foil thrust...
It would seem to me that if Lexan is problematic for foil it would be twice as problematic for sabre.
Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!
Possibly you could explain why anyone would think that a mask design which may not be safe for foil is perfectly peachy to keep using for sabre?
That's perfectly obvious. If a blade penetrates a Foilist's mask, the blade might continue on and injure the Foilist's brain. As everyone already knows, that is not a possibility for a Sabreist....
The DFB (German Fencing Federation) has temporarily banned the use of lexan masks in their domestic competitions (not including FIE or EFC tournaments) in all weapons. Said ban to continue until the FIE reports on the results of their investigations following from the incident in Odense.
-B
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
That's perfectly obvious. If a blade penetrates a Foilist's mask, the blade might continue on and injure the Foilist's brain. As everyone already knows, that is not a possibility for a Sabreist....
Patently untrue, since many sabre fencers, however incomprehsibly, also fence foil. However, in the case of those of us who fence only sabre, you are correct, it is impossible for a sabre fencer's blade to penetrate a foilist's brain...
( Don't blame me, you wrote those sentences that way! )
Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!
This guy, like me, was coming from Phoenixinto Show Low at 11,000 feet, about 20 miles west. I talked to him shortly after I took this 3rd picture. He never saw anything, just BAM! Bird strike at 250kts or so. Wind. Had glasses on, took them off and put a spare pair on, landed at Show Low. Ambulance. 18 stitches. Black eyes. Blood everywhere in the cockpit. When I took the photos, one quick pass had already been made at cleaning it out. He literally just came from the hospital to see his plane. He was obviously scared ****less, but amazingly calm. When I left Show Low, an A&P had been flown in and was taping over the window, they were having a new one flown in...will take a couple of days. $15K+ for that windscreen. A very minor ding where the bird's head hit on the frame, but otherwise, except for the blood, no damage to the plane. They haven't determined the make/model of the bird. Nothing left..
Last edited by Wetmelon; 11-24-2009 at 12:30 AM.
In Flanders fields the poppies grow - Between the crosses, row on row, - That mark our place, and in the sky, - The larks, still bravely singing, fly, - Scarce heard amid the guns below. ~John McCrae
I bet they find it was not Lexan, a GE trademarked PC, that was used in the mask. I find it hard to believe that any tip could punture the correct thickness PC. Did the fencer replace the original with a thinner one to save weight to try to get a competitive advantage. Lexan is bullet proof. I have used it in race car windshields, my sons hockey goalie mask is Lexan and it stops 100 mph slap shots (it will also stop a .38) with plenty of sweat and body oil on it. His lacrosse helmet is Lexan and takes plenty of hits. The only thing is they must be replaced every 5 years when the certification runs out.
If you do get VOC's on PC's they do crack and craze and become foggy but must be under extreme tension to shatter.
I have used it in race car windshields, my sons hockey goalie mask is Lexan and it stops 100 mph slap shots (it will also stop a .38) with plenty of sweat and body oil on it.
British Fencing has temporarily banned transparent masks in foil and epee unless they have two layers of transparent material (e.g. Leon Paul).
While I think I understand the BFA's reasoning, I have to wonder if the next step will be requiring visor masks be taken apart during inspection to ensure that none of the scratches in the outer layer reached the second layer?
And people think the lines for equipment inspections are long now
While I think I understand the BFA's reasoning, I have to wonder if the next step will be requiring visor masks be taken apart during inspection to ensure that none of the scratches in the outer layer reached the second layer?
And people think the lines for equipment inspections are long now
You assume there is equipment inspections at any domestic british events.....
Originally Posted by touchefriend 
