Punctured mask at European Jr Championships

[rudd]

The Universal sports coverage of the World Championship was quite significant. Of course it's difficult to say if the visor masks and wireless fencing contributed to this.

[parrythis]

Plexiglas. or Lexan, which is often called,

Just to be clear, in case anyone doesn't already know, plexiglas and Lexan are not even remotely close to being the same thing. Plexiglas shatters far, far, far more easily than Lexan.

[Purple Fencer]

A very little bit more, judging from these past world championships. Although the decision had more to do with Olympic coverage, rather than non-Olympic coverage.

It was also related to television coverage...not internet. NBC did a great job on internet coverage in Beijing....but they did that for ALL sports, not just fencing.

Again....how much of an increase in TV coverage?

[fdad]

The Universal sports coverage of the World Championship was quite significant. Of course it's difficult to say if the visor masks and wireless fencing contributed to this.

I almost everycase where I've seen fencing on TV, the camera was place beside the strip and the fencers were seen in profile. You see the lexan, but very little of the face behind it. I really don't think it adds anything positive to the viewing experience, at least not for me.

[Fencergrl]

Again....how much of an increase in TV coverage?

That's not what kalivor is saying.

Although the decision had more to do with Olympic coverage, rather than non-Olympic coverage.

Purple, I think you missed Kalivor's point.

[Fiat Slug]

Looking closely at the picture in the center at the point a crack has developed (but without examining the mask it is not possible to see which way the crack developed) there is what looks like a dent to the outer metal frame. If this is large enough and with the screws tightened or over tightened from inside this could have stressed the surface of the polycarbonate for a period of time sufficient to develop micro cracks from which failure could subsequently initiate.

This brings up a good point. Many fencers (myself included) do not like to tinker with our equipment. Without a proper torque wrench, it would be tempting to overtighten every single bolt so that we don't have to re-tighten it as often. Is it possible to change the design to employ an alternate method of securing the lexan so that it's less susceptible to human error?

[occasionalfencer]

I don't even want a visor mask. Never have. (I'd sweat on the visor and not want to clean it etc). I just want to see them as a viable, safe product choice for those that DO kinda want one.

I think the point a lot of people are making is that hardly anybody actually wants one. The requirement for the visor masks was forced upon fencers who do not want them, by someone who will never fence in one, for really stupid reasons. I don't think anyone here is arguing that they should not be available to those who want the visor masks. But if the manufacturers had to depend on fencers who want them, there would not be enough of a market.

[Purple Fencer]

Purple, I think you missed Kalivor's point.

And I think you missed mine. The decision to mandate lexan masks was made to increase television coverage....thoughts of internet broadcasting were not, as I recall, part of the equation. Television and the internet are not the same....you can easily sit there with your remote and surf TV channels and stop when you see something interesting. You can't do that on the net.

@Fiat...the idea of a torque wrench would be a good one....if there were specs on the necessary torque, but there ARE no such specs.

You don't need to crank the screws like the Hulk, but you definitely don't want then wobbling around....a nice snug fit is good and likely won't over-stress the lexan under the frame.

I definitely like the idea of a rubber layer to cushion it. Unfortunately, that equals a material change to the design, with mandates a new submission to FIE for testing...which is several thousand dollars, so some companies may not be willing to drop more money into it right now unless it's a truly radical redesign like the X-Change. I've forgotten if masks have to be resubmitted every few years like blades do....but I suspect they do. In that case, that would be a perfect time to submit with the rubber gasket...no additional cost aside from what you're already incurring.

[SJCFU#2]

I've forgotten if masks have to be resubmitted every few years like blades do....but I suspect they do.

Unfortunately I suspect that may not be the case with masks.

The FIE list of approved blades includes a complete history of every time a blade has been resubmitted for testing. However with one exception, the list of approved masks only lists the year of initial approval, and since that one exception is Leon Paul I suspect the second approval may be associated with the X-Change mask.

Of course this wouldn't be the first time the FIE has been inconsistent. either in terms of requirements or record keeping. Might be worth asking Dan if he knows (then share his response with the rest of us).

[Fencergrl]

And I think you missed mine. The decision to mandate lexan masks was made to increase television coverage....thoughts of internet broadcasting were not, as I recall, part of the equation. Television and the internet are not the same....you can easily sit there with your remote and surf TV channels and stop when you see something interesting. You can't do that on the net.

No, it's just you two were having two different arguments.

I personally think it's more important to have fencing in the Olympics than have more television coverage. When it comes to the general public, I think fencing is best in small dosages. Even as fencers... there's only so much of it we really want to watch.

The Olympics draws viewers that we may not normally get and it helps legitimize the sport. I don't think stand alone fencing coverage would necessarily bring the same benefit.

Fencing is hard to follow & the rules are not well known compared to say hockey, soccer, baseball etc... You can watch those games and without really knowing the rules understand what's going on.

Fencing isn't like that. I usually have to explain to the parents of my fencers what's going on. Hell... I find fencing can be hard to follow at times on TV & prefer Internet where I can replay actions whenever I want.

Let me put it this way... If you were flicking channels and saw a sport you didn't understand such as cricket, curling etc... on the TV how long would you linger? Would that lingering make you want to try the sport? In many cases no.

What connects someone to a sport, is getting to try it. I think the more we can get it out at a community level, the better off we are.

I have no problem with the FIE trying to appease the Olympic committee in order to keep the sport there. Having said that, I'm not saying that I think that visor masks are or are not the best way of doing that. I'm really on the fence on that one. One punctured mask does not make it necessarily a bad idea. I am interested to hear the results of the testing.

[Purple Fencer]

Good thought. I wonder if housing the plate with a rubber gasket would help any. Disipate the shock of the hit some. <shrug>.

I just dropped Dan DeChaine a question about that. My personal thought is that it would probably help to dissipate impact forces...as well as provide a better grip on the plate within the frame mounting.

I see no reason why it would be illegal in the US....but it might invalidate FIE certification, since it constitutes a material change to the mask.

Either way, you're still depending on the fencer for maintenance.

[erik_blank]

After reading this thread for a while, and looking at the damage that the ask suffered, I decided to post a question on an engineering discussion group that is frequented by materials engineers. The responses were rather eye opening. I had always believed that Lexan (Polycarbonate) was one of the sturdiest things out there, but while it IS nice and ductile even under VERY cold situations, it is also very susceptible to weakening due to scratches and exposure to common solvents, acids and oils, INCLUDING sweat.
Here is a link to the thread: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=258328&page=1

After reading the few responses that I got so far, I really question the use of PC at all for this application especially since the mask is subject to repeated impacts, chipping, and chemical agents (including sweat) that could cause sudden catastrophic failures like the one that started this thread...

[Grasshopper]

This thread feels like an episode of House.

[foibles]

After reading this thread for a while, and looking at the damage that the ask suffered, I decided to post a question on an engineering discussion group that is frequented by materials engineers. The responses were rather eye opening. I had always believed that Lexan (Polycarbonate) was one of the sturdiest things out there, but while it IS nice and ductile even under VERY cold situations, it is also very susceptible to weakening due to scratches and exposure to common solvents, acids and oils, INCLUDING sweat.
Here is a link to the thread: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=258328&page=1

After reading the few responses that I got so far, I really question the use of PC at all for this application especially since the mask is subject to repeated impacts, chipping, and chemical agents (including sweat) that could cause sudden catastrophic failures like the one that started this thread...

I'm not an engineer. I did work in plastics for a while a long time ago. My gut tells me that sweat and solvents would act on the surface of the visor without substantially damaging the impact strength.

They make an interesting point regarding the stress risers caused by hit scars on the plastic. This thought lends itself well to Barry Paul's suggestion that other mfg also adopt a replaceable protective covering for the lense.

Their question concerning whether the visors are injection molded or thermoformed is also interesting from a molecular orientation perspective.

I wonder if the rubber gasket can also help solve the whole overtightening thing.

[Purple Fencer]

I wonder if the rubber gasket can also help solve the whole overtightening thing.

I'll let you know when I hear from Dan DeChaine....but I think he's on his way to NAC B....normally he responds by now.

[kalivor]

And I think you missed mine. The decision to mandate lexan masks was made to increase television coverage

My impression was that the lexan masks were introduced to try to make the sport appear more telegenic to TV executives, thereby ensuring that fencing avoided being cut from the Olympics.

This goal is distinct from receiving any non-Olympic coverage, and does not even necessarily mean an increase in coverage during the Olympics.

While it was certainly not part of the plan, the increase in popularity of 3-5 minute videos on the internet has given the sport much more video accessibility than previous. If the original "telegenic" assessment is correct, this should prove beneficial to the sport.

Television and the internet are not the same....you can easily sit there with your remote and surf TV channels and stop when you see something interesting. You can't do that on the net.

People can and do "surf the net".

[foibles]

I think the point a lot of people are making is that hardly anybody actually wants one. The requirement for the visor masks was forced upon fencers who do not want them, by someone who will never fence in one, for really stupid reasons. I don't think anyone here is arguing that they should not be available to those who want the visor masks. But if the manufacturers had to depend on fencers who want them, there would not be enough of a market.

Forcing unwanted change down the throats of competitve fencers by the FIE is certainly nothing new.

The reasons may or may not be stupid. Fencing's been in a death struggle to retain it's Olympic Sport status as long as I can remember. (That's what we've been told anyway). If there's a chance these masks'll help some.. well might be worth a try.

I don't think there are a lot of new ideas floating around that haven't been tried... but the blinking mask lights, wireless strips and visor mask ARE something new. Couple those with allowing color on uniforms and lames and the image of the sport may well favorably change a bit. At least they're trying something.

Maybe these changes won't help. But it's an interesting experiment. I think so anyway.

I totally agree that the requirement created the market for visor masks. Without that, I expect the R&D and product launch costs would never have been conducive to serious development of the masks.

I wonder if Ziv recovered his dev costs prior to the requirement.

[Purple Fencer]

People can and do "surf the net".

Not the same way you do with a TV remote....a push of a single button and just flipping channels. on the net you have to go specifically looking for something...at least by plugging a parameter into a search box.

[Grasshopper]

While it was certainly not part of the plan, the increase in popularity of 3-5 minute videos on the internet has given the sport much more video accessibility than previous.

Same could be said about the porn industry but I don't see them in the Olympics....yet.

[ladyofshalott99]

This topic has me curious about the material used by riot police/military in the transparent visors attached to riot gear helmets. What material do they use for those applications, and how suitable would it be to implement a similar material for fencing?