1. Most of these posts are well intentioned but worthless speculation without scientific analysis by the exact manufacturer of that piece of Lexan combined with photos and video.
2. Lexan masks should have been eliminated for stupidity reasons long before the few reported failures, as they nothing to the sport.
1. Most of these posts are well intentioned but worthless speculation without scientific analysis by the exact manufacturer of that piece of Lexan combined with photos and video.
2. Lexan masks should have been eliminated for stupidity reasons long before the few reported failures, as they nothing to the sport.
I sincerely hope the FIE SEMI commission will now recommend banning lexan masks given this (thankfully non-fatal) injury. Or will we have to wait for someone to actually be killed before they do that?
The blade was most likely stiff and hit with a locked arm and a powerful lunge. But i have heard many tests were done on this visor mask and it was very unusual. Only other explanation was that there was a previous dent in the mask
I sincerely hope the FIE SEMI commission will now recommend banning lexan masks given this (thankfully non-fatal) injury. Or will we have to wait for someone to actually be killed before they do that?
Lexan masks are downright stupid.
Dan
SEMI and Medical recommended against them in the first place....Roch overruled them.
2. Lexan masks should have been eliminated for stupidity reasons long before the few reported failures, as they nothing to the sport.
I think they read exceptionally well visually for TV and video... and that DOES add to the sport. Seeing the expressions and eyes of the competitors looks very cool on vid.
I also think that if this isn't an anomaly, visor masks can certainly be engineered to an acceptable lvl of safety.
Many people got injured back when masks had snap-on bibs. Many folk got injured/ had close calls before the strap was added on the back of the mask.
Having close calls, evaluating and changing is how we get improvements. Having close calls and immediately abandoning attempts at improvement- retreating back into the known is how we stiffle innovation.
Respected mfg does not want to create masks that fail. They want these masks to succeed. My guess is that reasonable measures were taken towards that end. But sometimes, things happen, and you have to investigate, assess and adjust.
To say a visor mask failed, therefore the whole concept of a visor mask is flawed is a kneejerk reaction in the wrong direction.
__________________ When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."
I, for one, think it was a brilliant idea to burden athletes at the international level by requiring a piece of equipment that is 80-100% more expensive than its predecessor, just for the sake of the television audiences. That, and assuming those athletes don't replace their masks after two years (I hear some go through them pretty quickly, depending on how much they train and compete), there's an additional cost of upkeep in replacing the Lexan.
I think they read exceptionally well visually for TV and video... and that DOES add to the sport. Seeing the expressions and eyes of the competitors looks very cool on vid.
Aaannnndd exactly HOW much more TV coverage has the sport gotten in non-Olympic years?
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I also think that if this isn't an anomaly, visor masks can certainly be engineered to an acceptable lvl of safety.
There have been some other instances....this particular one just happens to the one with the best coverage.
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Many people got injured back when masks had snap-on bibs. Many folk got injured/ had close calls before the strap was added on the back of the mask.
The addition of the back strap or sewing the bib all the way down did not result in such a cost difference to the fencer...nor was there a safety concern such as improper storage or transportation degrading that safety feature like there is on the lexan.
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Having close calls, evaluating and changing is how we get improvements. Having close calls and immediately abandoning attempts at improvement- retreating back into the known is how we stiffle innovation.
And having close calls because you're depending on the end user to not do something like ignore the care instructions or hope they'll take the few seconds to make sure the screws in the frame are tight doesn't exactly help matters either. Nor does a ruling body ignoring the recommendations of TWO of it's committees against these "improvements." not every change ends up being a safety improvement.
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Respected mfg does not want to create masks that fail. They want these masks to succeed. My guess is that reasonable measures were taken towards that end. But sometimes, things happen, and you have to investigate, assess and adjust.
I'm sure the fencer involved i this incident would be soooo comforted by that line if an eye had been lost.....yeah.....right.
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To say a visor mask failed, therefore the whole concept of a visor mask is flawed is a kneejerk reaction in the wrong direction.
A knee-jerk would be as reaction to something unforeseen. The concerns predate this incident by several years....this is exactly what some people have feared....if it had been a couple of inches higher on the face...
Not a chance I prefer to take....I might sell a visor mask to a film shoot, since they're not really fencing with it....but to a competitive fencer? No. Someone comes to me wanting to buy one...I'll refer them to a different vendor...but I do not believe in these masks and do not want a potential failure on my head.
Not a chance I prefer to take....I might sell a visor mask to a film shoot, since they're not really fencing with it....but to a competitive fencer? No. Someone comes to me wanting to buy one...I'll refer them to a different vendor...but I do not believe in these masks and do not want a potential failure on my head.
Wait, I'm not quite clear on how you feel about visor masks. You kind of like them, but aren't completely sold on the idea?
-B
__________________
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
Respected mfg does not want to create masks that fail. They want these masks to succeed. My guess is that reasonable measures were taken towards that end. But sometimes, things happen, and you have to investigate, assess and adjust.
Without commenting on the respectibility of this manufacturer, I believe their objective is one of business success. Therefore, they will continue to manufacture the mask as long as it can be financially profitable. While one can argue that financial success is closely linked to product safety, the two are not the same. I agree that people should investigate the causes, reassess, and maybe adjust. However, I would not be comfortable in assuming that the manufacturer places our safety above corporate profit.
Personally, I would be hard pressed to wear a piece of safety equipment that is not proven to be safer than the product that it replaces.
The policy of using visor masks is stupid. They want the visor just because they wanna see the face of the fencer. If that's the case why don't they decide fencing without masks?
Rather than spending money and time on visor masks should they discover the fourth weapon?
__________________
Flail is my favourite weapon in fencing competition
1. Aaannnndd exactly HOW much more TV coverage has the sport gotten in non-Olympic years?
2.There have been some other instances....this particular one just happens to the one with the best coverage.
3.The addition of the back strap or sewing the bib all the way down did not result in such a cost difference to the fencer...nor was there a safety concern such as improper storage or transportation degrading that safety feature like there is on the lexan.
4.And having close calls because you're depending on the end user to not do something like ignore the care instructions or hope they'll take the few seconds to make sure the screws in the frame are tight doesn't exactly help matters either. Nor does a ruling body ignoring the recommendations of TWO of it's committees against these "improvements." not every change ends up being a safety improvement.
5. I'm sure the fencer involved i this incident would be soooo comforted by that line if an eye had been lost.....yeah.....right.
6. A knee-jerk would be as reaction to something unforeseen. The concerns predate this incident by several years....this is exactly what some people have feared....if it had been a couple of inches higher on the face...
7. Not a chance I prefer to take....I might sell a visor mask to a film shoot, since they're not really fencing with it....but to a competitive fencer? No. Someone comes to me wanting to buy one...I'll refer them to a different vendor...but I do not believe in these masks and do not want a potential failure on my head.
1. My thinking was that in order to keep fencing an olympic event that the lexan masks were developed to increase visual appeal? Not true? And keeping fencing in the olympics is very good for the sport. Fencing will never get substantial TV airtime. Ever. That old chestnut is long since cracked.
2. ok. I'm no expert on it. If there are a ton of scary instances I'm unaware of, then my perceptions would likely change.
3. Could be. But there may well be grades of polycarbonate that can endure multiple freeze cycles without sustantially increased brittleness. Lexan seems to perform well protecting car headlights, even after a winter or two. (Apples and oranges, I know... but compelling).
4. I think that's a valid part of the process to improve stuff. You're exactly right. The product must be robust enough to withstand common misuse. When patterns of misuse make themselves known, you work that into the equation so the next version attempts to resolve those issues. Those solutions become the features and benefits of the new model that make it the better choice over a competitor's offering. Leon Paul xchange is a fantastic example of this. Not only for the exchangeable bib, but the contour fit, etc.
5. I don't say that injury or death is worth the price of innovation. You can never say "sorry about your eye, Bob, but its an innovative new product and hey... if you're gonna make an omlet..."
I say that despite the best of intentions, and the most reasonable of preparations, no matter how hard you work your FMEA studies, unexpected, unfortunate things will and do happen. When they do, I think it's appropriate to honestly acknowledge the sacrifices of the individuals involved, pay attention to the near misses when they occur, and do your damndest to learn as much as you can from various incidents while continuing to move forward.
6. Fair enough. Describing legitimate longstanding concerns as "Kneejerk reactions" was a very poor choice of words on my part.
7. That's why you're a good armorer and a good vendor.
I don't even want a visor mask. Never have. (I'd sweat on the visor and not want to clean it etc). I just want to see them as a viable, safe product choice for those that DO kinda want one. AND I want to see some understanding and support in the fencing community that can allow for continued product innovation. Even though I don't personally want one, I think they're very interesting.
There does seem to be a lot of resentment over visor masks tho...
__________________ When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."
2. ok. I'm no expert on it. If there are a ton of scary instances I'm unaware of, then my perceptions would likely change.
There was one plate that fell out and I think another one that failed a few years back....Don Clinton knew more about it than I did....but THIS failure is the first time I remember actually seeing a picture of.
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3. Could be. But there may well be grades of polycarbonate that can endure multiple freeze cycles without sustantially increased brittleness. Lexan seems to perform well protecting car headlights, even after a winter or two. (Apples and oranges, I know... but compelling).
Military-grade stuff comes to mind....the type used in aircraft that fly at high altitudes where it's really cold (higher than commercial airliners)....the problem there is the cost.
The policy of using visor masks is stupid. They want the visor just because they wanna see the face of the fencer. If that's the case why don't they decide fencing without masks?
That's telling 'em BK!
__________________ FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WON'T YOU BUY MY TACTICAL WHEEL!!!????
found this post on a fire-fighters website about how to smash through lexan windows:
"one way to take care of lexan is to hit it with a co2 extinguisher and then take a whack at it with a pick head axe or halligan. the intense cold followed by the impact is "supposed" to shatter the lexan. this would be more appropriate for forcing entry into a building than vehicle extrication, though. never tried it myself, but have heard it works."
Without commenting on the respectibility of this manufacturer, I believe their objective is one of business success. Therefore, they will continue to manufacture the mask as long as it can be financially profitable. While one can argue that financial success is closely linked to product safety, the two are not the same. I agree that people should investigate the causes, reassess, and maybe adjust. However, I would not be comfortable in assuming that the manufacturer places our safety above corporate profit.
Personally, I would be hard pressed to wear a piece of safety equipment that is not proven to be safer than the product that it replaces.
Nicely stated.
Well. If they cannot be proven to be just as safe or more, I expect it will be difficult for the FIE to continue to require their use in high lvl events. As such, safety is directly linked to financial profitability of visor masks.
When it comes to safety vs profit, some vendors are suspect (Wuxie?) where others have repeatedly earned our trust.
__________________ When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."
Military-grade stuff comes to mind....the type used in aircraft that fly at high altitudes where it's really cold (higher than commercial airliners)....the problem there is the cost.
Good thought. I wonder if housing the plate with a rubber gasket would help any. Disipate the shock of the hit some. <shrug>.
__________________ When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."
Looking closely at the picture in the center at the point a crack has developed (but without examining the mask it is not possible to see which way the crack developed) there is what looks like a dent to the outer metal frame. If this is large enough and with the screws tightened or over tightened from inside this could have stressed the surface of the polycarbonate for a period of time sufficient to develop micro cracks from which failure could subsequently initiate.
Proper investigation of the failed mask will be able to explain the failure mode and recommend if any action needs to be made.
I really don't understand why no other manufactures other than us (Leon Paul) has a outer replaceable scratch layer, it certainly cannot do any harm, is inexpensive and in my view makes failures such as these virtually impossible.
Aaannnndd exactly HOW much more TV coverage has the sport gotten in non-Olympic years?
A very little bit more, judging from these past world championships. Although the decision had more to do with Olympic coverage, rather than non-Olympic coverage.
A slightly different question: How much more VIDEO coverage has the sport received?
Thanks to YouTube, I would wager that it's quite a bit.
A very little bit more, judging from these past world championships. Although the decision had more to do with Olympic coverage, rather than non-Olympic coverage.
A slightly different question: How much more VIDEO coverage has the sport received?
Thanks to YouTube, I would wager that it's quite a bit.
YouTube covers all kinds of crap. Visor masks certainly have in no way contributed to fencing coverage on YouTube.
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