nobody had the courage to actually fight the lobbyists and the "jobs in my district" slaves until now.
Eh...are you saying that no President before Obama has cut defense spending?
Or only that only Obama is courageous? ( And doubtless trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, clean, and reverent. )
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Originally Posted by jessicasimpson
I was thinking more of record growth, balanced budget, lower crime, ect. ect.
The fact that you attribute all of that to Clinton, or indeed to the federal government, is very touching. One doesn't often encounter such credulity in real life, outside of churches.
I begin to think that maybe faith in government is the left's substitute for the religion which imbues so much of the right. ( And IMO both are about equally delusional. )
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Or how about changing the Arpanet into the Internet and revolutionizing the way information is accessed around the entire world
Don't forget, Al Gore invented it in the first place!
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Originally Posted by jeff
Worth pointing out that this was the "socialized medicine" of the day, according to the right-wingers who opposed it. That it was an outstanding success that increased prosperity and improved the lives of millions of people pretty much makes the point...
Well, electric power generation and transmission is a natural monopoly, and health care isn't. But don't let that stop you from asserting an identity between wildly different things.
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Originally Posted by jessicasimpson
You have to understand the ideals of the Democratic Party. They think there are no bad ideas, because they feel that the Government can't do anything wrong. They are completely vindicated in their opinions, because every time their party gains control, nothing gets done right, but that never changes a fool's mind.
Fixed that for you.
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Not refuting this, just being sure to point something out: This was indeed a very successful program with many parallels to the health care debate of today, however you'll note in this situation the answer was not to socialize, but firm regulation, and co-ops to ensure utility providers were providing to even those who were not considered profitable. I think this has worked out pretty well for the most part. This doesn't really refute anything you've said, just wanted to bring attention to that
Fair enough, and I'll point out to your pointing out that even a public healthcare option still relates to finances rather than providing the service iself. So, I agree that we're not disagreeing and that the situations have much in common - not least of which the shrill cries that rural electrification (and the things davesaint listed - thank you Dave) were examples of socialism that would ruin the country but turned out to be highly successful.
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different."
Eh...are you saying that no President before Obama has cut defense spending?
Much simpler - I was responding to BB's silly comment that nothing good came from the Obama administration. How the statement that "Obama did something good" could be misconstrued as "nothing good came from anyone else" is beyond my control I realize the "nobody" could be a faux ami if the context was neglected...
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Originally Posted by Inquartata
Or only that only Obama is courageous? ( And doubtless trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, clean, and reverent. )
If we based presidency on merit badges - well, that would exclude most future and all prior holders of the office!
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different."
Without debating the merits of any of those ideas, it is worth noting that NASA was established before Kennedy became president, while a republican was in office. Also, since your list is clearly not a comprehensive list of all our countries "accomplishments" are we left to believe that everything else worthwhile was achieved by a republican?
The fact that you attribute all of that to Clinton, or indeed to the federal government, is very touching. One doesn't often encounter such credulity in real life, outside of churches.
If you don't think the federal government is responsible for the balanced budget, well, then we should not here anymore complaints about being delusional from you. Was Chase was your sock puppet?
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"There is a fine line between clever and stupid" David St. Hubbins
Without debating the merits of any of those ideas, it is worth noting that NASA was established before Kennedy became president, while a republican was in office. Also, since your list is clearly not a comprehensive list of all our countries "accomplishments" are we left to believe that everything else worthwhile was achieved by a republican?
Actually, no, I would suggest that some things done by the Republicans are truely worthwile efforts, such as the Interstate Highway system under Ike. I just hate it when republicans don't acknolwedge when democrats are able to place into being good quality government run progams.
My bad, however Nasa was not nearly as well funded until Kennedy took over.
I wasn't sure about OSHA. I thought it had been around a lot longer than Nixon TBH. However many of the work place and food safety laws were inacted originally in the Wilson administration. They were significantly strengthened with the creation of OSHA under Nixon.
Fair enough, and I'll point out to your pointing out that even a public healthcare option still relates to finances rather than providing the service iself.
True enough - but it still seems closer to direct involvement. Say, in the RE example, the government would make a national utility to compete directly with private utilities.
But no, a public option is still not socialization per se, I agree.
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So, I agree that we're not disagreeing and that the situations have much in common - not least of which the shrill cries that rural electrification (and the things davesaint listed - thank you Dave) were examples of socialism that would ruin the country but turned out to be highly successful.
Absolutely.
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"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."
Thanks ILS, I think we're pretty much in same place.
I just looked up OSHA, and the bill passed in 1970, hence during Nixon. Funny thing about Nixon is that with OSHA and the EPA (also 1970) passed on his watch and with his signature, Nixon was part for some of the nation's most valuable safety and environmental legislation. The Republican party has veered so far to the right that he would probably not able to be a member of the party he once led. The clowns like Rush would smear him as a RINO and drum him out of the party. An irony.
I think Dave's list is very valuable, despite the understandable mistakes of OSHA and NASA (we have to remember which year had Sputnik and who was president then). Those are all programs that have improved the quality of life for millions of Americans, and were branded as socialist or pinko by conservative dead-enders at the time. Good thing we didn't listen to them then. If health care reform passes without being ruined by compromise, we'll be able to look back at this time as equally momentous and beneficial. But, politics is always the art of the possible and marked by compromise, so that's just the normal situation.
OT: Some people here like to imagine that I'm Obama's cheerleader in all things, On the contrary: I'm disappointed in him and his administration for not doing what Volker has recommended: to bring back Glass Steagal so banks can't indulge in risky investments, and I think their moves to roll back Sarbanes Oxley are completely mistaken. They should have also taken a more direct role to limit executive compensation for bailed out firms, perhaps even placed them in receivership. I think that all the conservative whining that Obama supporters are starry-eyed fans is just a tactic they use to cover over their seditious criticism (for example, Rush saying that Obama and Democrats wanted US military defeat).
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different."
If you don't think the federal government is responsible for the balanced budget, well, then we should not here anymore complaints about being delusional from you
When tax and fee revenues go up as a result of a long economic boom, no, that's not the government's doing.
And it certainly didn't help much on the expenditure side, either. All that cost-cutting and elimination of pork that didn't go on, there's government for you.
Your continued faith in your secular church is touching, though.
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Was Chase was your sock puppet?
Beyond an ad hominem attempt, I'm not sure what that means. Old guy, remember?
And I forgive you the ad hominem, I know that people get prickly when you challenge their religion.
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Those are all programs that have improved the quality of life for millions of Americans, and were branded as socialist or pinko by conservative dead-enders at the time.
Your standard, then, is that anything which "improves the quality of life for millions of Americans" is ineluctably a good thing?
Mussolini made the trains run on time, ya know.
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If health care reform passes without being ruined by compromise, we'll be able to look back at this time as equally momentous and beneficial.
Right up until it threatens to bankrupt us, like Social Security and Medicare.
If we're lucky....
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I'm disappointed in him and his administration for not doing what Volker has recommended: to bring back Glass Steagal so banks can't indulge in risky investments, and I think their moves to roll back Sarbanes Oxley are completely mistaken.
I had such high hopes when he announced Volcker as an advisor. Too bad that he won't take his calls now.
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Your standard, then, is that anything which "improves the quality of life for millions of Americans" is ineluctably a good thing?
Yes. That's close to a tautology.
It sure as hell beats "leaving in place a crappy status quo where we pay much more than other first world countries and have far worse health by every metric"
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Originally Posted by Inquartata
Mussolini made the trains run on time, ya know.
If "ferrovia reform" was the bulk of his programs they'd still be singing his praises, but it was a inconsequential next to Fascism and signing up for global war. In other words "Nice catch phrase, but so what."
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Originally Posted by Inquartata
Right up until it threatens to bankrupt us, like Social Security and Medicare.
Both of which are solveable problems, frankly.
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Originally Posted by Inquartata
If we're lucky....
If we're rational we'll fix the quite fixable financial issues rather than throw out enormously beneficial programs that have proven themselves for decades.
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Originally Posted by Inquartata
I had such high hopes when he announced Volcker as an advisor. Too bad that he won't take his calls now.
Next time one of the cave trolls says that I cheerlead everything that Obama does we'll remember this part of the conversation, eh?
Though, are you really disappointed for the same reasons I am? I'm calling for increased regulation and restraint on the irresponsible financial services industry. Surely you aren't calling for the same thing as me? That would confuse the viewing audience!
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different."
When tax and fee revenues go up as a result of a long economic boom, no, that's not the government's doing.
And it certainly didn't help much on the expenditure side, either. All that cost-cutting and elimination of pork that didn't go on, there's government for you.
If the free market is what causes a balanced budget, then the free market is a massive failure
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"There is a fine line between clever and stupid" David St. Hubbins
So, then, if I can think of examples which would "improve the quality of millions of Americans but which none of us would actually want---do I win?
( "The Stepford Wives" springs to mind. )
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It sure as hell beats "leaving in place a crappy status quo where we pay much more than other first world countries and have far worse health by every metric"
AND an AMA that's a monopoly, forget not!
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Both of which are solveable problems, frankly.
Indeed, yes. Though not by our government, apparently, or it would have been done by now. ( More a matter of the spine to act than the capability, but our pols seem to lack the former, if not the latter. )
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If we're rational we'll fix the quite fixable financial issues rather than throw out enormously beneficial programs that have proven themselves for decades.
Have you watched C-Span lately? "Rational" seems noticeably absent to me...
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Though, are you really disappointed for the same reasons I am? I'm calling for increased regulation and restraint on the irresponsible financial services industry. Surely you aren't calling for the same thing as me? That would confuse the viewing audience!
I'm not entirely sure.
In the same way that I defer to the judgements of our military leaders and analysts about the war in Afghanistan rather than substituting my much less expert and informed opinions ( or Pigeonmeister's ), so too Volcker is a much better and more informed economist than I will ever be and I am inclined to defer to his judgement...
OTOH, what you see as "increased regulation" may not really be exactly what he means...
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