NCAA confirms NOT eligible

[foilwatcher]

Just for a firm clarification, I spoke to the NCAA compliance office today. The following is quoted from the DIV III regs, and, of course, DIV I/II would be stricter. There is NO way an NCAA athlete can compete at NAC D or JO Team events.

14.7 OUTSIDE COMPETITION, EFFECTS ON ELIGIBILITY
The eligibility of a student-athlete who engages in outside competition (see Bylaw 17.02.9) is affected as set forth
in the following regulations.
14.7.1 Outside Competition. A student-athlete becomes ineligible for intercollegiate competition in that
sport until eligibility is restored by the NCAA Division III Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement if, after
enrollment in college and during any year in which the student-athlete is a member of an intercollegiate squad or
team, he or she competes or has competed as a member of any outside team in any noncollegiate, amateur competition
(e.g., tournament play, exhibition games or other activity[/b]) during the institution’s intercollegiate season in
the sport (see Bylaw 14.7.3 for exceptions and waivers) unless restored to eligibility before that time by the Committee
on Student-Athlete Reinstatement. (Revised: 1/16/93, 1/11/94, 1/13/03 effective 8/1/03, 12/20/04, 1/10/05)

[Craig]

In other words, the NCAA would view fencing for a club team the same as they would view a basketball player playing for an AAU club team during the NCAA season?

Craig

[pillow]

I guess we have no reason to doubt your post. I am very sorry to hear that, but the NCAA cannot be trifled with in this situation. It unfortunately confirms my earlier posts that the team events, which we all love, are facing an uphill battle given the schedule. The NCAA decision would seem to be the icing on the cake. I still hold out some hope of a decent team registration, but this does seem like bad news.

[pillow]

Originally Posted by foilwatcher

Just for a firm clarification, I spoke to the NCAA compliance office today. The following is quoted from the DIV III regs, and, of course, DIV I/II would be stricter. There is NO way an NCAA athlete can compete at NAC D or JO Team events.

14.7 OUTSIDE COMPETITION, EFFECTS ON ELIGIBILITY
The eligibility of a student-athlete who engages in outside competition (see Bylaw 17.02.9) is affected as set forth
in the following regulations.
14.7.1 Outside Competition. A student-athlete becomes ineligible for intercollegiate competition in that
sport until eligibility is restored by the NCAA Division III Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement if, after
enrollment in college and during any year in which the student-athlete is a member of an intercollegiate squad or
team, he or she competes or has competed as a member of any outside team in any noncollegiate, amateur competition
(e.g., tournament play, exhibition games or other activity[/b]) during the institution’s intercollegiate season in
the sport (see Bylaw 14.7.3 for exceptions and waivers) unless restored to eligibility before that time by the Committee
on Student-Athlete Reinstatement. (Revised: 1/16/93, 1/11/94, 1/13/03 effective 8/1/03, 12/20/04, 1/10/05)

Has this been forwarded to Christine or Ashley at the National Office?

[Displacement]

Originally Posted by Craig

In other words, the NCAA would view fencing for a club team the same as they would view a basketball player playing for an AAU club team during the NCAA season?

Craig

I remember this rule from our annual NCAA briefing when I was in college.

The compliance officer mentioned you cannot play for any other team during your season for basically any reason. One of my teammates asked "Can I play in my Churches volleyball league during the winter break?", without hesitation he said "No".

[oiuyt]

edit: (It's a statement from one compliance office. It's NOT a statement from the NCAA.) -- Correction: Apparently it's a statement from the NCAA National Office. A slight change in how the team events are structured would seem to bring into play an exception to the cited rule.

14.7.1.6 (assuming Div III matches Div I here, which is not normally a safe assumption, but 14.7.1 matches, which raises hope) indicates that team events in individual sports are exempt. Fencing is defined by the NCAA as an individual sport.

The question is whether a club-based team falls under the wording of 14.7.1.6.

Personally I don't think it should. It violates what I, personally (and NOT speaking for Temple University, Temple Athletics, or the NCAA) feel is the spirit of the exception, if not the letter.

Of course if we (US Fencing) changed it to where the teams in the team events were ANY group of 3-4 athletes who enter together then 14.7.1.6 would absolutely apply and the NCAA issue would evaporate in my opinion (again, personal opinion and not that of anyone else). Team events such as tennis doubles teams, golf "Pro-Ams", and track relay teams are the given examples of what is allowed and they do not count as "outside teams."

-B

[pillow]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

It's a statement from one compliance office. It's NOT a statement from the NCAA.

14.7.1.6 (assuming Div III matches Div I here, which is not normally a safe assumption, but 14.7.1 matches, which raises hope) indicates that team events in individual sports are exempt. Fencing is defined by the NCAA as an individual sport.

The question is whether a club-based team falls under the wording of 14.7.1.6.

Personally I don't think it should. It violates what I, personally (and NOT speaking for Temple University, Temple Athletics, or the NCAA) feel is the spirit of the exception, if not the letter.

Of course if we (US Fencing) changed it to where the teams in the team events were ANY group of 3-4 athletes who enter together then 14.7.1.6 would absolutely apply and the NCAA issue would evaporate in my opinion (again, personal opinion and not that of anyone else). Team events such as tennis doubles teams, golf "Pro-Ams", and track relay teams are the given examples of what is allowed and they do not count as "outside teams."

-B

So you are saying we need another ruling, this time from the NCAA home office, specifically regarding the USFA and teams at NACs. I hope someone is working on this so the fencers can find out before the team entry deadline.

[keith]

Originally Posted by pillow

So you are saying we need another ruling, this time from the NCAA home office, specifically regarding the USFA and teams at NACs. I hope someone is working on this so the fencers can find out before the team entry deadline.

Hopefully what he is saying is the before the USFA embarked on this project it received a compliance ruling from the NCAA.

[pillow]

Originally Posted by keith

Hopefully what he is saying is the before the USFA embarked on this project it received a compliance ruling from the NCAA.

It has already been established that this was not done.

[foilwatcher]

Sorry I didn't get back to the computer immediately. What I actually did is contact the woman responsible for interfacing with the NCAA for the Fencing Championships. She referred me to the direct line (317 area code...is that the "home office"?) for parent/student compliance questions. The woman I spoke to there (after a 45 minute wait on the phone) was very pleasant, and more than willing to help. She did not give me a formal "opinion" per se. She looked up the regulation she felt applied (and her job is to apply these regs), and walked me through the NCAA website to the appropriate section. It was her "opinion" (and I guess that's not the same as having a written letter from the NCAA) that the rule was clear, and definitely applied to the situation I described. She WAS surprised (hah!) that the USFA did not have a firm statement for us on the subject.

I had simultaneously emailed Ashley Razo 2 days ago, and her response was "It is my understanding that all NCAA fencers must represent their college team during the NCAA season".

So....I called my kid and told him to just hang out on the day between Div I and Junior, and contacted his club coach, and told him that is was a no-go

[oso97]

Ahhh, yes, we must do everything we can to take care of the NCAA regulations. Lets see, they will apply to what percentage of the potential competitors?

You get certain benefits by fencing NCAA. This also comes with certain restrictions on your actions. Deal with it. Or don't fence NCAA. What's the big deal?

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by oso97

You get certain benefits by fencing NCAA. This also comes with certain restrictions on your actions. Deal with it. Or don't fence NCAA. What's the big deal?

It cuts out a number of high quality fencers from a team event that's already looking DOA?

[teacup]

Originally Posted by oso97

Ahhh, yes, we must do everything we can to take care of the NCAA regulations. Lets see, they will apply to what percentage of the potential competitors?

You get certain benefits by fencing NCAA. This also comes with certain restrictions on your actions. Deal with it. Or don't fence NCAA. What's the big deal?

But if NCAA fencers are ineligible to fence team, it means they are also eliminated from the available pool of fencers from their home clubs and divisions where some could be the third member of a club or division team enabling a team to exist which couldn't otherwise. Having these fencers unable to fence for either their school or their club diminishes the number and strength of potential teams which therefore makes it an issue for a greater number of people than just the NCAA fencers themselves.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by teacup

Having these fencers unable to fence for either their school or their club diminishes the number and strength of potential teams which therefore makes it an issue for a greater number of people than just the NCAA fencers themselves.

NCAA fencers can fence as part of a school team.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by prototoast

NCAA fencers can fence as part of a school team.

Yes, and no. I don't think all schools are registered clubs with the USFA and if a fencer fences on a school team, then they wouldn't be allowed to fence with their home clubs at Summer Nationals.

Of course there will be lots of people that have no connection to NCAA fencers and will be able to form a team and happily fence but there will be many top juniors who are unable to fence due to NCAA restrictions. Some clubs and divisions will be unable to form teams because they cannot get three people to commit that much in the future or one of their club's fencers fences NCAA.

Therefore this is an experiment. Having Div I teams would have been a different experiment. Who knows what will happen. Hopefully, team confirmed entries will be posted as soon as possible to give people an idea of what to expect and encourage participation.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by teacup

Yes, and no. I don't think all schools are registered clubs with the USFA and if a fencer fences on a school team, then they wouldn't be allowed to fence with their home clubs at Summer Nationals.

The USFA already allows college fencers to fence for their college during the school year and a club over the summer. I don't know if this applies to teams, but it certainly wouldn't be (or shouldn't be) difficult for the USFA to change that rule.

Logistically this is still one more obstacle impeding teams from forming, but it's misleading to say that it completely excludes NCAA fencers who wish to maintain their eligibility.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by prototoast

The USFA already allows college fencers to fence for their college during the school year and a club over the summer. I don't know if this applies to teams, but it certainly wouldn't be (or shouldn't be) difficult for the USFA to change that rule.

Logistically this is still one more obstacle impeding teams from forming, but it's misleading to say that it completely excludes NCAA fencers who wish to maintain their eligibility.

My understanding as a non-NCAA fencer was that college fencers fencing NCAA events during the season must fence unattached, and then are allowed to declare their club affiliation part way through the year, the same way others are allowed.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by prototoast

The USFA already allows college fencers to fence for their college during the school year and a club over the summer. I don't know if this applies to teams, but it certainly wouldn't be (or shouldn't be) difficult for the USFA to change that rule.

Logistically this is still one more obstacle impeding teams from forming, but it's misleading to say that it completely excludes NCAA fencers who wish to maintain their eligibility.

Maybe the USFA allows it but the rules are so unclear no NCAA athlete is going to take the chance. They will fence unattached and not fence club, division or school teams until the NCAA season is over OR until the rule is very clear from the NCAA that it is okay to fence in a USFA event for a club/division or school team during the NCAA season.

Even it they can form a NCAA school team, by USFA rules they would be unable to fence in a club team at Summer Nationals. Therefore some may choose to fence at Summer Nationals rather than NAC D or JOs.

All of this confusion creates more decisions and more obstacles for NCAA fencers and their teammates at their home clubs as to whether or not to fence team at NAC D or JOs.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

My understanding as a non-NCAA fencer was that college fencers fencing NCAA events during the season must fence unattached, and then are allowed to declare their club affiliation part way through the year, the same way others are allowed.

No, an NCAA athlete can represent his school without jeopardizing his NCAA eligibility. (this part is a little fuzzy) As best I understand it, there are NCAA rules governing the number of team events in a season, and I believe if the athlete represents his or her school, it counts against that. If he or she fences unattached it doesn't. In general, I don't think any fencing teams come close to capping, but I think it's a little more paperwork involved if the fencer fences for his school.

[LordShout]

Really the only notable part of this whole business is the degree to which the NCAA has crammed its own head up its rectum, but I suppose that is par for the course.

To all those considering college fencing that read this thread: Collegiate club teams, while not affording the vast majority of the benefits of varsity fencing still have the important activity, fencing, while avoiding the 'fun' of following NCAA rules.