NCAA confirms NOT eligible

[pillow]

This thread, in my opinion, has just about outlived any further use.

If the USFA wants the team events to work, it is their responsibility to have a contact person on the USFA national tournament staff who has interfaced with the chief compliance officer at NCAA headquarters. Not a "person who answers the phone." A written ruling should have been prepared by the NCAA and USFA, and posted on the USFA website. This is not the kind of thing to dump on the fencers to "self-police." It is the job of the NGB for our sport.

As has been posted ad nauseum, the fact that some teams are on the off days which the better fencers will use for rest, ( at least every one I have spoken to is not fencing on the off days) and other team events are at the start and end of the NAC "weekend" which will require additional hotel expenses and possibly missed school, will further reduce the quantity and quality of the team events. Nobody I have spoken to is staying the extra day for a team event. All the more important to get the NCAA issue resolved to salvage those Div I and Juniors who may want to fence team, but need an iron-clad rule from the NCAA.

The USFA made the schedule with all its potential problems as outlined above, and they also know that many fencers have NCAA issues. So fix it, if possible.

[piste off]

14.7.1.6 (assuming Div III matches Div I here, which is not normally a safe assumption, but 14.7.1 matches, which raises hope) indicates that team events in individual sports are exempt. Fencing is defined by the NCAA as an individual sport.

What is under "Bylaw 14.7.3 for exceptions and waivers" mentioned in the OP? Does this add further qualifications as to what events are OK and how does this affect the question at hand? Reading just 14.7.1, it sounds like you could not even fence on a National team without jeopardizing eligibility.

R-

[oiuyt]

What is under "Bylaw 14.7.3 for exceptions and waivers" mentioned in the OP?

(answer taken from the Div I manual, which may or may not match Div II or III)

High school alumni games, Olympic Games, Pan American Games and tryouts, US National Teams, Official World Championships, World University Games, World Cups and tryouts, state and national multi-sport events. There are also some basketball-specific exceptions listed in 14.7.3.2.

Note that 14.7.1.1 also carves out an exception to 14.7.1 if a student-athlete is both outside of the declared playing season and during an official school vacation period. That may apply to some, but not all, NCAA athletes for the January NAC, depending on what their school has declared as the playing season for a given year (fencing allows the playing season to be in two sections, with a gap in the middle).

This really isn't an easy question to answer and cannot be universally responded to by only citing a single rule.

-B

[fdad]

(answer taken from the Div I manual, which may or may not match Div II or III)

High school alumni games, Olympic Games, Pan American Games and tryouts, US National Teams, Official World Championships, World University Games, World Cups and tryouts, state and national multi-sport events. There are also some basketball-specific exceptions listed in 14.7.3.2.

Note that 14.7.1.1 also carves out an exception to 14.7.1 if a student-athlete is both outside of the declared playing season and during an official school vacation period. That may apply to some, but not all, NCAA athletes for the January NAC, depending on what their school has declared as the playing season for a given year (fencing allows the playing season to be in two sections, with a gap in the middle).

This really isn't an easy question to answer and cannot be universally responded to by only citing a single rule.

-B

I thought there was something in there about track relays, since USFA fencing team events are relays (completely different format from NCAA team events), you would think that was the most relevent exception.

Sadly, I think the only way to get a definitive answer out of the NCAA might be to have a fencer compete on a club team during a NAC, and then protest if they try to declare him/her ineligible. Currently, the only answers we are getting are incomplete quotes of rules from an NCAA automaton.

[teacup]

The USFA already allows college fencers to fence for their college during the school year and a club over the summer. I don't know if this applies to teams, but it certainly wouldn't be (or shouldn't be) difficult for the USFA to change that rule.

Logistically this is still one more obstacle impeding teams from forming, but it's misleading to say that it completely excludes NCAA fencers who wish to maintain their eligibility.

Maybe the definition of a team is the problem. The NCAA defines the team as all the fencers who fence for the school in the NCAA format. I realize that fencers can fence for their school teams and then fence for their clubs for Summer Nationals but if nine fencers formed three three person teams and fenced in the USFA team format representing XYZ school at the NAC D, is that allowed by the USFA and NCAA? And our those fencers then allowed to fence in USFA team events for their home clubs?

[occasionalfencer]

This thread, in my opinion, has just about outlived any further use.

If the USFA wants the team events to work, it is their responsibility to have a contact person on the USFA national tournament staff who has interfaced with the chief compliance officer at NCAA headquarters. Not a "person who answers the phone." A written ruling should have been prepared by the NCAA and USFA, and posted on the USFA website. This is not the kind of thing to dump on the fencers to "self-police." It is the job of the NGB for our sport.

As has been posted ad nauseum, the fact that some teams are on the off days which the better fencers will use for rest, ( at least every one I have spoken to is not fencing on the off days) and other team events are at the start and end of the NAC "weekend" which will require additional hotel expenses and possibly missed school, will further reduce the quantity and quality of the team events. Nobody I have spoken to is staying the extra day for a team event. All the more important to get the NCAA issue resolved to salvage those Div I and Juniors who may want to fence team, but need an iron-clad rule from the NCAA.

The USFA made the schedule with all its potential problems as outlined above, and they also know that many fencers have NCAA issues. So fix it, if possible.

And if not possible, then we have another example of the USFA coming up with a bright idea which they attempt to foist off on us without any of the necessary work on their part, which should have been done BEFOREHAND. Why is it so hard for the office to understand that their work is not just coming up with bright ideas, then throwing them out for us to do the research to figure out what will actually work? I have an idea- let fnet come up with the ideas, and let the paid staff do the work of research.

[pillow]

(answer taken from the Div I manual, which may or may not match Div II or III)

High school alumni games, Olympic Games, Pan American Games and tryouts, US National Teams, Official World Championships, World University Games, World Cups and tryouts, state and national multi-sport events. There are also some basketball-specific exceptions listed in 14.7.3.2.

Note that 14.7.1.1 also carves out an exception to 14.7.1 if a student-athlete is both outside of the declared playing season and during an official school vacation period. That may apply to some, but not all, NCAA athletes for the January NAC, depending on what their school has declared as the playing season for a given year (fencing allows the playing season to be in two sections, with a gap in the middle).

This really isn't an easy question to answer and cannot be universally responded to by only citing a single rule.

-B

If it is not an easy question, then why was it left up to the student-athletes, who have enough to do between their studies and sports? Is is too late for you Brad, or better yet Kurt, to call the NCAA and resolve this in time for the team registration?

[seak]

Because the answer is going to be different depending on the NCAA school involved. There isn't a universal answer. And NCAA teams (including fencing) have a compliance officer assigned to them at the school level to deal with just these sorts of questions for their student-athletes. Hence, it makes far more sense for the USFA to acknowledge that there are potential issues and then instruct NCAA fencers to determine their own eligibility (and this is in fact the way it is usually done in most other sports).

For instance many NCAA teams use an NAC as one of their official dates, hence it might be legal for them to fence as a team there. UNC on the other hand uses all of their dates on collegiate events, and hence the UNC fencers probably would not be able to fence team events.

[oiuyt]

Why is it so hard for the office to understand that their work is not just coming up with bright ideas, then throwing them out for us to do the research to figure out what will actually work?

This did not come from the office.

The office usually works on implementation. The Board and various committees are where decisions, such as adding team events to NACs/JOs, generally come from.

-B

[pillow]

Because the answer is going to be different depending on the NCAA school involved. There isn't a universal answer. And NCAA teams (including fencing) have a compliance officer assigned to them at the school level to deal with just these sorts of questions for their student-athletes. Hence, it makes far more sense for the USFA to acknowledge that there are potential issues and then instruct NCAA fencers to determine their own eligibility (and this is in fact the way it is usually done in most other sports).

For instance many NCAA teams use an NAC as one of their official dates, hence it might be legal for them to fence as a team there. UNC on the other hand uses all of their dates on collegiate events, and hence the UNC fencers probably would not be able to fence team events.

Based on this info, do you think most NCAA fencers will bother to do the legal research involved, or just forget the team event altogether?

[seak]

Oh, I think very few of them will bother to do the work, but I think that's mostly because very few of them will care enough. These are 18-22 year old adults living alone we're talking about fully capable of doing the research themselves, and those that actually care probably will, but my guess is that's a very small percentage. I'm not sure it's the USFA's job though to do the work for them because they're to apathetic. Never mind that each situation is potentially unique such that a blanket answer probably isn't going to suffice.

Disclaimer: I have no official knowledge or affiliation with the NCAA or any NCAA fencing team, this is all speculation based on having perused the rules and spending far to much time on sports websites and hanging around NCAA teams.

[pillow]

Oh, I think very few of them will bother to do the work, but I think that's mostly because very few of them will care enough. These are 18-22 year old adults living alone we're talking about fully capable of doing the research themselves, and those that actually care probably will, but my guess is that's a very small percentage. I'm not sure it's the USFA's job though to do the work for them because they're to apathetic. Never mind that each situation is potentially unique such that a blanket answer probably isn't going to suffice.

Disclaimer: I have no official knowledge or affiliation with the NCAA or any NCAA fencing team, this is all speculation based on having perused the rules and spending far to much time on sports websites and hanging around NCAA teams.

All good points. As the team deadline is in about 18 days, and the registered teams will be posted, we can then see if all these concerns are justified or not.