"limited event" vs. sanctioning....

[ladyofshalott99]

Was looking for tournaments for November, and came upon one on AskFRED with the following descriptive verbiage:

"Intimate event, each weapon will be limited to 18 participants."


Coincidentally, I was speaking with my boyfriend--a Division Officer--about another tournament this weekend, and a club that wanted to have a limited (by invitation only) turnout. He said that if a club limits an event to a specified number of people (or clubs, etc.), that it can't be Sanctioned. However, I'm having trouble finding verbiage to this end in the USFA Operations Guide.

Does anyone have any information on this, and more important, what SPECIFIC rule may I reference to validate/invalidate the question? (I don't want to drive six hours to something that I won't be able to compete in with my friends, one of whom is an Officer in that Division as well )

Thanks!

[catwood1]

I know limiting the number of entries in and event is not grounds for refusing to sanction an event. I've been to numerous events with limited numbers.

However, I am reasonably certain an invitational could not be sanctioned. I don't have the rules in front of me, but I can't see any way that it would be allowed. If you wanted, you could effectively create a custom made event with the sole purpose of giving away a rating.


Edit* yikes, skipped a word that flat out reversed what I meant...

[ladyofshalott99]

If you wanted, you could effectively create a custom made event with the sole purpose of giving away a rating.

Ugh!! That's just...wrong.

I'm more curious because the event on AskFRED is *not* an invitational--it's just limited to X number of fencers. I can't find anything in the Ops Manual that states under the Restrictions section that this is not allowed, but it seems highly irregular--hence, my query.

[epeemike81]

I know limiting the number of entries in and event is not grounds for refusing to sanction an event. I've been to numerous events with limited numbers.

However, I am reasonably certain an invitational could NOT be sanctioned. I don't have the rules in front of me, but I can't see any way that it would be allowed. If you wanted, you could effectively create a custom made event with the sole purpose of giving away a rating.

Fixed that for you, since your second sentence seems to indicate you missed that rather crucial word.

I agree with catwood's (fixed) interpretation. Many events that are limited entry on a first come first serve basis are sanctioned (notably round robin events where there is a physical limitation on number of fencers a facility can accomodate in that format).

As soon as you start picking and choosing who can come instead of just taking first come first serve you've violated at least the spirit of the rules and will likely be de-sanctioned.

-m

[catwood1]

Darn it. I skipped a word that reversed what I meant. Talk about a typing fail.

[edew]

An actual invitational probably is not sanctionable. However, many tournaments are called "... Invitational" where everyone (who is eligible) is invited.

[AndrewH]

An actual invitational probably is not sanctionable. However, many tournaments are called "... Invitational" where everyone (who is eligible) is invited.

Like DI Nationals, which are "by invitation only", with a standard criteria by which to earn an invitation.

[catwood1]

An actual invitational probably is not sanctionable. However, many tournaments are called "... Invitational" where everyone (who is eligible) is invited.

Indeed. Just because something is called an "invitational" does not, by default, mean it shouldn't be sanctioned. Only if it is ACTUALLY an invitational should it be unsanctioned.

[fdad]

It seems like limiting the number of registrants is an easy way around the rules. I can open registration at 3am, and preregister enough members of my club to fill out the quota.

[epeemike81]

It seems like limiting the number of registrants is an easy way around the rules. I can open registration at 3am, and preregister enough members of my club to fill out the quota.

At which point I'd appeal to the Tournament Committee/Executive Committee and win. Remember that all these events are subject to review afterwards and shenanigans such as this will very likely lead to de-sanctioning.

-m

[Slacker]

I don't think there is any wording that would prohibit sanctioning of what is essentially, a closed event. Maybe it seems wrong, but there it is. Appeal if it bugs you.

[epeemike81]

I don't think there is any wording that would prohibit sanctioning of what is essentially, a closed event. Maybe it seems wrong, but there it is. Appeal if it bugs you.

Really?

Restricted competitions may not be rated unless the restriction is based solely upon fencers’ classifications or age or Division or Section membership.

That would seem to do it as far as I can tell...

What affect that language has on a capped event is debatable, though in practical experience first come first serve limited size events have been treated as opens.

-m

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Really?
That would seem to do it as far as I can tell...

What affect that language has on a capped event is debatable, though in practical experience first come first serve limited size events have been treated as opens.

-m

I would agree that they have been treated as such in the past, but they usually have good justification for the size cap (the aforementioned round robin), and the cap isn't excessively small.

There might be a different conclusion if there was a standard-format event held over 8 hours in a three-basketball-court-sized gym and was limited to six people : )

[Wafath]

At one point not too long ago, the interpretation out of the USFA was that capped events could not give ratings. (this was applied to events like a U foil event limited to 42 fencers.)

W

[catwood1]

At one point not too long ago, the interpretation out of the USFA was that capped events could not give ratings. (this was applied to events like a U foil event limited to 42 fencers.)

W

I think a U event capped at 42 is just a mercy rule for referees....

[cbcarey]

Wouldn't any event that has a qualifier be a restricted event? All of summer nationals for instance. So, could someone have a local tournament that only invited competitors with national points, or who had attended a nac, or any of the criteria the USFA uses for nationals?