NAC/JO Team Events

[teacup]

The addition of team events is being discussed in a couple of threads, so here is a dedicated thread.
From the USFA website:
NAC Team Registration Process
http://usfencing.org/pages/7604

Please read below as the team process will be different from the one used at Summer Nationals. Please see the team entry form for appropriate tournament deadlines.

Registration

1. Teams will be required to submit 3-4 team member names and captain with the team entry - this will streamline the verification of membership, NRPS and classification prior to the tournament. Those fencers who are NCAA fencers will need to self monitor club affiliation and NCAA eligibility.
2. NAC, JO's and Veteran team events will be an open registration process in line with individual entry deadlines.
3. Clubs may enter no more than 3 teams per event.
4. At North American Cup tournaments Junior & Division 2 team member's division composites will be allowed. Fencers on composite teams must be from the same geographic USFA division and cannot be on a club team in the same event.
1. Veteran Teams will be open to any 3-4 Veteran aged competitive members. Club & Division affiliations will not be enforced for Veteran Team events.
5. The team events are purely voluntary and if coaches want their fencers to rest rather than to compete that is a decision between coach and fencer. Those fencers who are NCAA fencers would need to self monitor club affiliation and NCAA eligibility.
6. Seeding information will be based on the same deadlines used for individual events.
7. Preliminary team seeding and table will be posted on the USFA web site.
1. This will allow the teams to verify information and contact the National Office with any corrections by a designated date. If teams fail to do so, information stands as presented.
2. Table will only be reconstituted if the classification and/or NRPS are in error
3. If a team withdraws after the classification deadline for that tournament, the table stands as constituted.
4. Higher seeded team would automatically be designated as the "winner of the coin flip" and assigned the 1-2-3 side

At the Venue

8. Teams will be required to check-in with the Bout Committee by a designated time to determine fencer order. Time will be posted with check-in schedule.
9. At the team start time, posted with the check-in schedule, both teams and referees will be at their designated strips. Strip assignments will be posted in the venue.
10. Format will be direct elimination team matches, fence off for 3rd.
11. Fencers' can compete in one individual and one team event per day.

[SabreReedfrost]

1. Teams will be required to submit 3-4 team member names and captain with the team entry - this will streamline the verification of membership, NRPS and classification prior to the tournament.

And or including team captain?

[KD5MDK]

Team Captain is not necessarily a fencer on the team. They could even not be a Junior or eligible to compete. I presume they would need to be a USFA member.

[mfp]

1. Veteran Teams will be open to any 3-4 Veteran aged competitive members. Club & Division affiliations will not be enforced for Veteran Team events.

Are the team events on the NAC E Dallas schedule Vet Team events or Div2 Team events? (Or both running at the same time?)

The team entry form link on the NAC E page is broken.

4. At North American Cup tournaments Junior & Division 2 team member's division composites will be allowed. Fencers on composite teams must be from the same geographic USFA division and cannot be on a club team in the same event.

Weird wording.

[dberke]

Are the team events on the NAC E Dallas schedule Vet Team events or Div2 Team events? (Or both running at the same time?)

There are no Vet team events at NAC E, just Div II team. The Vet team events are only at Summer Nationals.

Dan

[pillow]

Any news on Rule #5 regarding NCAA stuff? Will NCAA fencers be competing on teams at JOs?

[fdad]

Any news on Rule #5 regarding NCAA stuff? Will NCAA fencers be competing on teams at JOs?

Its hard to call #5 a rule, its more of a disclaimer. NCAA Fencers did participate in San Jose team event(s), but not for their USFA club. It's not up to the USFA to decide on NCAA eligibility, fencers should ask their compliance officer. I guess Northwestern decided it was OK if they did it as a team.

[pillow]

Its hard to call #5 a rule, its more of a disclaimer. NCAA Fencers did participate in San Jose team event(s), but not for their USFA club. It's not up to the USFA to decide on NCAA eligibility, fencers should ask their compliance officer. I guess Northwestern decided it was OK if they did it as a team.

Yes, but starting with the JOs of next season, the Junior Team event there will be the official Junior Team National Championship, just like the individual events at the JOs. There will no longer be a Junior Team National Championship at the Summer Nationals. Therefore, it would seem a bit silly not to have NCAA fencers at the JO's be able to compete for their USFA clubs in the Junior Team National Championship. Might be a good idea to figure this out sooner than later regarding NCAA compliance for this issue. This is obviously a job for the USFA to clear with the NCAA--if they don't, they wouldn't know how to create a proper team entry form, much less have a meaningful National Junior Team Championship.

[mgriff]

The problem, of course, is getting any sort of response (but preferably both timely and reliable) from the NCAA, which makes USFA look like a marvelously efficient organization.

[dberke]

Yes, but starting with the JOs of next season, the Junior Team event there will be the official Junior Team National Championship, just like the individual events at the JOs. There will no longer be a Junior Team National Championship at the Summer Nationals. Therefore, it would seem a bit silly not to have NCAA fencers at the JO's be able to compete for their USFA clubs in the Junior Team National Championship. Might be a good idea to figure this out sooner than later regarding NCAA compliance for this issue. This is obviously a job for the USFA to clear with the NCAA--if they don't, they wouldn't know how to create a proper team entry form, much less have a meaningful National Junior Team Championship.

As has been stated over and over, NCAA issues seem to vary depending on the compliance officer at each school since the NCAA as a whole doesn't provide a clear answer.

It's not the USFA's responsiblity to police this. When a fencer decides to fence in NCAA, they accept the responsibility of having to deal with all of these compliance headaches. It's the price they pay for the perceived benefits of being part of the NCAA, and these compliance issues are hardly a surprise. Nobody can claim ignorance and claim they didn't know it would be an issue. (And, even if they did, that's the fault of the fencer and their parent and/or coach, not the USFA.)

If some billionaire came along and offered full scholarships to any fencer who agrees to not fence at a USFA event in the month of February, should the USFA reschedule JOs in order to accommodate fencers who accept his offer? Or would you agree that's just silly?

Dan

[fdad]

As has been stated over and over, NCAA issues seem to vary depending on the compliance officer at each school since the NCAA as a whole doesn't provide a clear answer.

It's not the USFA's responsiblity to police this. When a fencer decides to fence in NCAA, they accept the responsibility of having to deal with all of these compliance headaches. It's the price they pay for the perceived benefits of being part of the NCAA, and these compliance issues are hardly a surprise. Nobody can claim ignorance and claim they didn't know it would be an issue. (And, even if they did, that's the fault of the fencer and their parent and/or coach, not the USFA.)

If some billionaire came along and offered full scholarships to any fencer who agrees to not fence at a USFA event in the month of February, should the USFA reschedule JOs in order to accommodate fencers who accept his offer? Or would you agree that's just silly?

Dan

While I agree with almost everything you said...

If some billionaire were, for quite a long time, offering full scholarships to any fencer who agreed to not fence at a USFA event in the month of February, should the USFA reschedule the national championship for junior teams to February? Or would you agree that's just silly?

[pillow]

As has been stated over and over, NCAA issues seem to vary depending on the compliance officer at each school since the NCAA as a whole doesn't provide a clear answer.

It's not the USFA's responsiblity to police this. When a fencer decides to fence in NCAA, they accept the responsibility of having to deal with all of these compliance headaches. It's the price they pay for the perceived benefits of being part of the NCAA, and these compliance issues are hardly a surprise. Nobody can claim ignorance and claim they didn't know it would be an issue. (And, even if they did, that's the fault of the fencer and their parent and/or coach, not the USFA.)

If some billionaire came along and offered full scholarships to any fencer who agrees to not fence at a USFA event in the month of February, should the USFA reschedule JOs in order to accommodate fencers who accept his offer? Or would you agree that's just silly?

Dan

You miss the point so totally, I will explain again. Let's see who here on f.net feels as I do, and who does not. Are you an apologist for USFA policies that may be questionable? Are you on a committee that is responsible for these team events and therefore unable to look at the issue with objectivity?

First of all, if the USFA wants to have a Junior Team National Championship NOT at the Summer Nationals, but rather at the JOs, then it is the USFA's responsibility, as IT has changed the ballgame. It was never a problem when the Team Champs were at the SN. Please don't dump NCAA compliance issues on the fencers who have had the rules CHANGED under them. So please don't say the fencers, coaches and parents KNEW it would be a problem, since nobody told them the schedule might change to create a compliance issue during the NCAA season specifically for team events. Did you tell the fencers, parents and coaches about this? If you did tell my fencers, I think I would have heard about it. Would it be so difficult for the USFA to try to communicate with the NCAA to get a clear ruling about this, or would it just be better to have the Junior Team National Championships put back at the Summer Nationals? The Juniors will be there anyway for the first NAC of the season.
What is silly is having to exclude some of our best fencers, who happen to be at NCAA programs, from fencing for their clubs, at what will be a meaningless Junior Team Championship at the JOs.
You want to blame the fencers for this situation--that's absurd. I say we should work together--the USFA and the NCAA should clarify the issue of team competition once and for all during the overlap of the USFA and the NCAA season.

[dberke]

You miss the point so totally, I will explain again. Let's see who here on f.net feels as I do, and who does not.

Strongly disagreeing with your position does not imply that I miss your point. I get your point, but think you are living in a fantasyland.

Are you an apologist for USFA policies that may be questionable? Are you on a committee that is responsible for these team events and therefore unable to look at the issue with objectivity?

Anyone who knows me knows I'm quite vocal about trying to fix things that the USFA does wrong. However, I prefer to voice those criticisms directly to the people who actually are responsible for making changes, rather than to the public at large.

And no, I'm not on a committee responsible for the team events. As a member of the Board of Directors I voted to add them to the calandar but the details of the implementation weren't something we dealt with.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm not looking at things obejctively. Perhaps you're the one not looking at things objectively?

First of all, if the USFA wants to have a Junior Team National Championship NOT at the Summer Nationals, but rather at the JOs, then it is the USFA's responsibility, as IT has changed the ballgame. It was never a problem when the Team Champs were at the SN.

Why are you getting so worked up about the junior team championships, which aren't event point events? If a fencer doesn't fence in a team event, it doesn't affect his point standings at all. Given the valid points fdad made in his last post, many top juniors have lots of other reasons to not fence the junior team events... NCAA eligibility is only one possible reason.

Please don't dump NCAA compliance issues on the fencers who have had the rules CHANGED under them. So please don't say the fencers, coaches and parents KNEW it would be a problem, since nobody told them the schedule might change to create a compliance issue during the NCAA season specifically for team events. Did you tell the fencers, parents and coaches about this? If you did tell my fencers, I think I would have heard about it.

We've been discussing the new season schedule since it was first announced last September, so exactly how much notice do you need before it's sufficient? One year? Two? Four?

Also, let me remind you that the proposed schedule hasn't been approved yet, so we don't even know if those changes will come to pass.

Would it be so difficult for the USFA to try to communicate with the NCAA to get a clear ruling about this, or would it just be better to have the Junior Team National Championships put back at the Summer Nationals?
The Juniors will be there anyway for the first NAC of the season.

You seem to refuse to accept the fact that the USFA has been trying to get clarification from the NCAA, but they haven't responded. I can't count how many times this has been explained (incuding as recently as a few posts ago.)

What is silly is having to exclude some of our best fencers, who happen to be at NCAA programs, from fencing for their clubs, at what will be a meaningless Junior Team Championship at the JOs.

They're not being excluded, they just have to get approval from their NCAA compliance officer.

You want to blame the fencers for this situation--that's absurd. I say we should work together--the USFA and the NCAA should clarify the issue of team competition once and for all during the overlap of the USFA and the NCAA season.

I'm not placing blame on the fencers, but I am expecting them to understand that their decision to fence NCAA has consequences. As has been said over and over, the USFA has tried to get clarity from the NCAA on all of this, but with little success. If you think you can do a better job at that, by all means, let's see it...

Dan

[pillow]

Strongly disagreeing with your position does not imply that I miss your point. I get your point, but think you are living in a fantasyland.



Anyone who knows me knows I'm quite vocal about trying to fix things that the USFA does wrong. However, I prefer to voice those criticisms directly to the people who actually are responsible for making changes, rather than to the public at large.

And no, I'm not on a committee responsible for the team events. As a member of the Board of Directors I voted to add them to the calandar but the details of the implementation weren't something we dealt with.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm not looking at things obejctively. Perhaps you're the one not looking at things objectively?



Why are you getting so worked up about the junior team championships, which aren't event point events? If a fencer doesn't fence in a team event, it doesn't affect his point standings at all. Given the valid points fdad made in his last post, many top juniors have lots of other reasons to not fence the junior team events... NCAA eligibility is only one possible reason.



We've been discussing the new season schedule since it was first announced last September, so exactly how much notice do you need before it's sufficient? One year? Two? Four?

Also, let me remind you that the proposed schedule hasn't been approved yet, so we don't even know if those changes will come to pass.




You seem to refuse to accept the fact that the USFA has been trying to get clarification from the NCAA, but they haven't responded. I can't count how many times this has been explained (incuding as recently as a few posts ago.)



They're not being excluded, they just have to get approval from their NCAA compliance officer.



I'm not placing blame on the fencers, but I am expecting them to understand that their decision to fence NCAA has consequences. As has been said over and over, the USFA has tried to get clarity from the NCAA on all of this, but with little success. If you think you can do a better job at that, by all means, let's see it...

Dan

I think the fantasy is placing a National Championship Team event in the middle of the NCAA season with all the potential problems that can cause.

I never mentioned points for the Team, so I agree that is not an issue.

Having discussed the proposed schedule since last fall, which has undergone revisions, simply complicates matters and does not make it easier for fencers and coaches. So yes, we may need to wait a few years until it is fully understood, that is, if it is approved.

I still think that placing NCAA fencers at the whim of "compliance officers" by holding the Team Champs during the JOs is a nice way to blame the victim. Are you saying the President and the ED of the USFA are unable to communicate with, and get a coherent response from the NCAA? I don't think so. Try harder. Believe me, I would like to see the event work as much as you would, but the current problems with NCAA issues are not the way to go. That is a direct result of having the Team Champs in Feb, not July at the SN. That is a decision the USFA brought on itself, and now wants to put the responsibility on the fencers and coaches.

[dberke]

I think the fantasy is placing a National Championship Team event in the middle of the NCAA season with all the potential problems that can cause.

I never mentioned points for the Team, so I agree that is not an issue.

If you think about it, the team championships have no real relevance (since they're not point events) - they're just for bragging rights. So why does it really matter? What if we didn't call them "championships" and just called them "for fun team events"? It seems like you're making these team events seem to be far more important than they are.

Having discussed the proposed schedule since last fall, which has undergone revisions, simply complicates matters and does not make it easier for fencers and coaches. So yes, we may need to wait a few years until it is fully understood, that is, if it is approved.

Really? What decisions that you have to make today are dependent on whether junior team events are at JOs 13 months from now, or at SN 17 months from now?

I still think that placing NCAA fencers at the whim of "compliance officers" by holding the Team Champs during the JOs is a nice way to blame the victim. Are you saying the President and the ED of the USFA are unable to communicate with, and get a coherent response from the NCAA? I don't think so. Try harder. Believe me, I would like to see the event work as much as you would, but the current problems with NCAA issues are not the way to go. That is a direct result of having the Team Champs in Feb, not July at the SN. That is a decision the USFA brought on itself, and now wants to put the responsibility on the fencers and coaches.

So basically what your saying is that, despite several people telling you otherwise (the USFA Secretary, a national bout commtitte chair, and at least one Board member), you still don't believe that the USFA has made a reasonable effort to get a response from the NCAA? If you think they're so ineffective, why don't you volunteer to help out, since you seem to think it's due to a lack of trying?

Dan

[pillow]

If you think about it, the team championships have no real relevance (since they're not point events) - they're just for bragging rights. So why does it really matter? What if we didn't call them "championships" and just called them "for fun team events"? It seems like you're making these team events seem to be far more important than they are.



Really? What decisions that you have to make today are dependent on whether junior team events are at JOs 13 months from now, or at SN 17 months from now?



So basically what your saying is that, despite several people telling you otherwise (the USFA Secretary, a national bout commtitte chair, and at least one Board member), you still don't believe that the USFA has made a reasonable effort to get a response from the NCAA? If you think they're so ineffective, why don't you volunteer to help out, since you seem to think it's due to a lack of trying?

Dan

Let's see. Last time I looked, the Team Events are National Championship events at the JOs. I don't make the rules. If you would like to change them to
"bragging rights champs" why don't you suggest it at the next board meeting?
I am merely pointing out that the USFA considers them Championship events, and it would be appropriate to have our best Juniors present, that's all. If the USFA was aware that there would be NCAA problems that would complicate or devalue the Junior National Team events as a result of holding them during the JOs, then I would suggest keeping them at the SN.

As far as getting a response, or lack of response from the NCAA, are you suggesting that the USFA is simply going to give up and allow the NCAA to dictate who can fence our national events? I believe the officers of the USFA will eventually resolve this issue with the NCAA directly, rather than give up.

[teacup]

Even if the USFA and NCAA sort out the compliance issues, not all the top junior fencers go to the Junior Olympics and many come from clubs which don't have enough fencers either of equal calibre or willing to travel and stay extra days to field teams anyway.

Having junior teams at the January NAC and JOs was an experiment. Hopefully, things will be learned about how to better schedule and encourage team events in the future.

[dberke]

Let's see. Last time I looked, the Team Events are National Championship events at the JOs. I don't make the rules. If you would like to change them to
"bragging rights champs" why don't you suggest it at the next board meeting?

Don't tempt me...

I am merely pointing out that the USFA considers them Championship events, and it would be appropriate to have our best Juniors present, that's all. If the USFA was aware that there would be NCAA problems that would complicate or devalue the Junior National Team events as a result of holding them during the JOs, then I would suggest keeping them at the SN.

As has been stated before, there are plenty of other reasons why the top juniors won't fence the team events, so they are devalued already.

I'd like to point out that often our top juniors don't even fence at JOs because they have enough points to lock in their team spot. A similar thing happened in 2008 at Div I - how many of the top fencers didn't even fence at Div I nationals because the team was already decided? Most of them didn't fence.

This is, unfortunately, a flaw in our whole points system - but that's a different issue.

As far as getting a response, or lack of response from the NCAA, are you suggesting that the USFA is simply going to give up and allow the NCAA to dictate who can fence our national events? I believe the officers of the USFA will eventually resolve this issue with the NCAA directly, rather than give up.

The USFA doesn't dictate whehter NCAA fencers can fence in USFA events, the NCAA does. The USFA has no control over the NCAA's rules.

Why does the concept of "personal responsibility" seem to offend you so much? Why isn't NCAA compliance something that each fencer should be responsible for?

Dan

[pillow]

Even if the USFA and NCAA sort out the compliance issues, not all the top junior fencers go to the Junior Olympics and many come from clubs which don't have enough fencers either of equal calibre or willing to travel and stay extra days to field teams anyway.

Having junior teams at the January NAC and JOs was an experiment. Hopefully, things will be learned about how to better schedule and encourage team events in the future.

I'm not sure that this will be true in the future. If the proposed schedule is passed, there will no longer be a Junior National Championship at the Summer Nationals, either for individuals or teams. As a result, I believe that many fencers who have skipped the JOs in the past will now fence that event. I also believe that the NCAA compliance issue will eventually be fixed, and we will see NCAA fencers representing their clubs at the Junior Team Champs at the JOs. Since we will have no Junior Team Championship at the SN, if the USFA wants to prevent the Team Championship at the JOs from becoming meaningless, it will come to an understanding with the NCAA that participation in that event will not violate NCAA rules. The NCAA will eventually understand that fencing for your club at a USFA event is not like you are changing teams to fence for another college, nor are you fencing professionally for money, and all NCAA fencers will be granted a waiver to fence USFA team events. It's just a matter of time.

Lastly, as far as fencers skipping the JO individuals if they have already made the Junior team, one can take two views. One is that it is only a few fencers in each weapon, so who cares if they show up or not? The other view is that the team selection criteria may be changed to strongly encourage ( ie require) those fencers to fence the JOs, as it is their national championship, or forfeit their place on the Junior World Team.

[teacup]

Lastly, as far as fencers skipping the JO individuals if they have already made the Junior team, one can take two views. One is that it is only a few fencers in each weapon, so who cares if they show up or not? The other view is that the team selection criteria may be changed to strongly encourage ( ie require) those fencers to fence the JOs, as it is their national championship, or forfeit their place on the Junior World Team.

Making or not making team are not the only reasons why many top fencers don't go. The location of JOs, (easy or difficult to get to places), being in the middle of NCAA/Ivy League season and those in their last year of fencing junior are other reasons why some junior fencers don't go. (And they are going to school too!)

When team events are scheduled, affects participation. For this JOs, junior epee teams are on Friday and Monday which means more missed school/work days and the added expense of extra hotel nights. Compound that with the fact that 3 teenage team members must decide as a group by Jan. 19th, to miss those extra school days and incur added expenses. (And these team members must communicate by text, phone or email since the college fencers are probably not physically near their home club.)

Besides sorting out NCAA/USFA/Ivy League compliance, unless the rules are changed as to team composition, the number of clubs that can field strong junior teams at JOs will be constrained.

Team events are great, trying different formats and groupings is worthwhile. As I have suggested before, instead of dealing with NCAA compliance issues, why not have cadet teams championships at JOs and Div I teams at the January NAC instead?

One thing that will be great about moving teams to JOs is no more division SN team qualifiers. Division team qualifiers are a waste of everyone's time and totally illogical. Any three people show up to qualify a team but anybody can fence on the teams at nationals. Why put everyone through the bother? If divisions want to host fun or championship team events, let them but don't force volunteers to hold meaningless qualifiers.