was blades..became thread lock debate...

[WJM]

If I could possibly get the opinion of some people who are either higher level fencers, armorers, coaches, clubmates of good fencers, second cousins of their mailman's dog groomer, whatever.

I'm a fencer who was hurt in my late teens, spent some years as an assistant coach/head coach, decided last year at age 25 I'd get back into the groove, after 8 months or so, went from a U rated epeeist to my current B02. Well I'm going to fence the big guys (literally!) at the NAC's this season, but my equipment is causing me some anxious feelings lately (and as those of you who know me, I'm already a jumpy little guy) So if those of you out there reading this could help me, I'd be really grateful.

Two things....
#1: I have several triplette bought "russian" "dinimo" bladed epees. Quotes because I've never been completely convinced they are from the same companies, although they carry the same marks, they are very different in the weight/thickness departments. Anyway, these epees are getting unrelible! I'm getting breakages more than I should, but my real issue is the tip will just stop working at times. I guess it's the contact spring, but the barrels in some will loosen at the drop of a hat. I tighten it like a maniac with a vice grip, but it just loosens up the next touch. Suggestions on keeping those tips working/barrels tight?

#2: I'm beginning to think that I want better blades! Although I tend to like a more flexible blade, it's not a big issue. WORKING and working well enough to keep me from worrying about it is the issue. FIE maraging blades then? what brands do the big boys use? Those of you who are national armorers, I really really really really want to know what brands of blade are the nationally ranked seniors and juniors bringing to NAC's and nationals?

-Will Mego

[Gav]

I read somewhere on here that you can by a glue-type substance that will ensure that the barrels are locked in place. Can't remember what the stuff is called. It isn't super glue - do not superglue your barrels on they're a pain to unscrew afterwards.

If your blades are in good nick then I wouldn't worry too much about breakage. If you have been out of the sport for a while then you may be Fencing in a manner that is contrary to a healthy lifespan for your blades.

I wouldn't worry. I've never been too bothered about the make of the blades that I buy, but then I always buy the same type. If you're looking for a nice flexible Epee blade try the LP V blades - they're my personal favourites. If you can get to a supplier to test them before you buy then I would highly recomend it as there is such a range in flexibility.

[Mr.Piccolo22]

Gav-
I think the material that your thinking of is called Loc-Tight. My spelling of this product might be off. Anyway, I use this stuff on bolts that keep loosing up on me and works really well. There is a down side to this product. Once you put it on its REALLY, REALLY hard to get off. I cannot stress the "really" enough. But the good news is that your tip will never come undone again.

[Gav]

Loc-tite is superglue, at least its a type of super glue that you can buy in the UK! I use it occasionally for gluing blades. It'll certainly stop your barrels coming off.

[DHCJr]

There are two problems with glue, loc-tite, plumber’s tape or the like. First it is illegal(Rule M.20). The reason it is illegal they are all insulators. A possible problem and solution is that you have a shoulder on the blade, just below the threads. What this means is instead of a gradual smooth change in size of the blade from the threads, there is a point where it suddenly gets larger, sort of like a shoulder. What is happening is that it stops tightening when it reaches the shoulder and not when it is tight. The solution is to get rid of the shoulder by filing it smooth to a gradual change in size. The problem is the only way to do it properly, it needs to be done with the tip off, which means a rewire.

Soldering is legal though (Rule M.20.2)

[damianip]

Originally posted by DHCJr
There are two problems with glue, loc-tite, plumber’s tape or the like. First it is illegal(Rule M.20). The reason it is illegal they are all insulators. A possible problem and solution is that you have a shoulder on the blade, just below the threads. What this means is instead of a gradual smooth change in size of the blade from the threads, there is a point where it suddenly gets larger, sort of like a shoulder. What is happening is that it stops tightening when it reaches the shoulder and not when it is tight. The solution is to get rid of the shoulder by filing it smooth to a gradual change in size. The problem is the only way to do it properly, it needs to be done with the tip off, which means a rewire.

Soldering is legal though (Rule M.20.2)

Donald,

I disagree with your interpretation of Rule m20.

Liquid thread lock compounds do not prevent metal to metal contact but rather improve the grip by filling the gaps between the thread (which would not be in contact compound or no) and providing adhesion in addition to the friction of metal to metal contact.

I use Lock-Tite on all my weapons and there is no issue with conductivity between the blade and the barrel.

The second suggestion of removing the shoulder works but will increase the chance splitting the barrel as the threads are driven deeper.

The better solution is to get blades made to a better manufacturing consistency. The Dinamo blades are rather variable. In my experience, I have found the the Leon Paul blades seem to be the most consistently made, followed by the BF blades.

Paolo

[DHCJr]

You're right I did misinterpret the rule. It has nothing to do with insulation. The rule is below, but the metal to metal is fairly straightforward. So I would say that using Loc-tite would be illegal if they noticed.

M-20.1 “Normally, only fixing by metal to metal is allowed. However, fixing by any insulating material of great mechanical strength may be authorized after approval of the SEMI Committee of the FIE.” I have never heard of the SEMI Committee ever authorizing anything else. If you know of any, I would like to know any new information.

As for your second point, I do agree that the barrel will have a slightly greater chance of splitting, but if you notice many screws that are used to keep something tight that is not removed regularly (example wood screws) do get larger. It is a chance, but on the weapons that I am the only one doing the work, that has happened probably around 3 to 5 times and that is for over 25 years. One note: With the barrels with the groove, (the ones most likely to break), I always use a 6mm (for Epee) open-end wrench. If you do you pliers or vise-grips, I would expect them to crack more.

On resistance, I find it is usually less than 4 Ohms, which I agree would not cause a problem, as the boxes are designed to still function up to 200 Ohms total resistance. The problem according to the rules you are allowed 2 Ohms resistance (1 Ohms per line). I’m not saying it will not work, I am just saying the first sentence of M-20.1 is straightforward. My way will only work if they do a rewire.

[sallearmourer]

Donald I can't beleive that you suguest to file on a blade that is illegal. Its called modifing the blade and you can"t do that.

And Loc tight is design to enhance metal to metal contact. But like any good armourer would do is check the tip to grd conections.

But filing on the blade forwarded of the tang is illegal.


Tim

[DHCJr]

Tim,

It would help if you told us what rule you are referring to. The closest rule I know of to what you are saying is the 2nd sentence, 3rd Paragraph of M-1 that states, “All methods of treating a blade between the guard and the tip (button), by grinding, filing or other methods are forbidden.”

This is not quite what you said, because you said ‘forwarded of the tang’. Since my method places the filed part inside the barrel and that is considered part of the ‘button’ as shown in M-20, it is not between the button and the guard, so with that rule it would be legal.

Could you let me know the rule you refer to? You know I always want to learn more.

[sallearmourer]

That is the rule I was refering to is m-1. By fileing the shoulder by the tip of the blade. therefore modify the blade. And in my judgement weak the tip of the blade


Tim

[L_Marie]

On lose barrels that keep getting loose i have had success with Devcon Thread Locker. It is easily unlocked with a plier. I use just a drop in the back side of a barrel being careful to not let it drip onto wires or into the barrel. So far..no problems and tight barrels.
Dame

[Manjusri]

A couple of things that can cause loose barrels: Using a teflon lubricant to prevent rust (it migrates to the tip), overtightening the barrel, esp. when the blade metal is soft. I've been using loc-tite for years. Works great and I've never had a blade rejected at a circuit for that reason.

[neevel]

I sent an e-mail to Dan DeChaine about the threadlocker issue. Here's his reply:

At this point all that I can say is that the SEMI has never addressed this
question. My gut feeling is that if there is an actual metal-to-metal
contact, the rules have not been violated and there should be no problem.
This is certainly easy to test (the metal-to-metal contact) via an ohmeter.
The rule is to avoid any sort of insulation between the barrel and the
blade.

Again, let me stress that the SEMI has not addressed this situation, perhaps
because it is a non situation, e.g. that if there is a true metal-to-metal
contact, no problem exists.

I know that this seems like a simple answer, but it is the best that I can
give you right now. I would suggest that you be very careful whenever using
any sort of threadlock because of the potential danger of the chemical's
wicking up into the barrel and gluing the parts inside the point.

Dan

[damianip]

For those interested:

Loctite info:

http://www.loctite.com/pdf/threadlocking.pdf

Paolo