Men's Sabre Team NAC D

[teacup]

Has that been confirmed? Last I heard, this has not been confirmed with the NCAA, so I think you may be jumping to conclusions.

No, it hasn't been confirmed and the information on the USFA website, as quoted in a previous post, is ambiguous. If there isn't a definitive answer from both the USFA and the NCAA, then NCAA fencers won't participate.

And, even if it turns out to be the case, not every junior fencer is attending a NCAA school. Sure, it's unfortunate for those in NCAA, but it's a non-issue for everyone else.

Dan

I agree with you many juniors do not fence NCAA, but many of the top ones do which doesn't help if one of the goals is preparing our fencers for worlds and international team events. (Neither does having junior team events prepare our senior fencers for Grand Prix team events but that's another question.)

But if NCAA fencers are ineligible to fence team, it means they are also eliminated from the available pool of fencers from their home clubs where some could be the third member of a club or division team, enabling their club to have a team. Having these fencers unable to fence for either their school or their club diminishes the number of potential teams which therefore makes it an issue for a greater number of people than just the NCAA fencers themselves.

[bigdawg2121]

NCAA fencers shouldn't be prevented from fencing on division teams should they?

[Wetmelon]

Blank

[oso97]

NCAA fencers shouldn't be prevented from fencing on division teams should they?

Given how fraked up NCAA eligibility stuff is (and the incredible amount of hand-holding and bending over the USFA does for the NCAA), one wouldn't be surprised if it would.

[fdad]

NCAA fencers shouldn't be prevented from fencing on division teams should they?

As far as I can tell, the rules do not mention clubs, they mention teams. The USFA has made it clear that they think the question of NCAA eligibility is up to the NCAA. However, they can decide whether a fencer can fence on a school based team during school season and then on a club based team during SN. It would be a nice gesture for them to do so.

[lewis]

As far as I can tell, the rules do not mention clubs, they mention teams. The USFA has made it clear that they think the question of NCAA eligibility is up to the NCAA. However, they can decide whether a fencer can fence on a school based team during school season and then on a club based team during SN. It would be a nice gesture for them to do so.

THe athlete's handbook discusses team events. They are allowed to fence for a club team at summer nationals even if they are unattached all year. If you are NOT an ncaa fencer and you go 'unattached' you are NOT permitted to 'attach' later and to fence for a club at SN. This is clearly stated but I don't think enforced. I think that there will need to be an amendment to the athlete's handbook if college fencers fence a team event as a college at a nac so they can fence a team for a club at SN. Oh but what a hoot to have notre dame vs psu or notre dame in a relay - or the ivies going head to head - many college teams attend this nac, and many of the fencers are not even on the points lists, so many possibilities so poorly thought out!

I like the team idea. But it would be better if it had just been an 'open' team for the first couple of times. Then the 14 year olds could do it as well as siblings, coaches, parents and friends on their off days. Relay team is so great.

[SabreReedfrost]

I like the team idea. But it would be better if it had just been an 'open' team for the first couple of times. Then the 14 year olds could do it as well as siblings, coaches, parents and friends on their off days. Relay team is so great.

That'd actually be a lot of fun... open team events.

[hello?]

I like the team idea. But it would be better if it had just been an 'open' team for the first couple of times. Then the 14 year olds could do it as well as siblings, coaches, parents and friends on their off days. Relay team is so great.

I know the veterans would love to join in!

[pillow]

Do the rules say anything about a team event being eliminated if too few teams sign up? Just thinking about when that decision would be made if people have plane or hotel reservations that need to be changed.

[fdad]

Do the rules say anything about a team event being eliminated if too few teams sign up? Just thinking about when that decision would be made if people have plane or hotel reservations that need to be changed.

I actually think there will be quite a few teams signed up - even though the team events are poorly advertised. The challenge will be getting those teams to show up.

If you sign up for a team 8 weeks ahead of the event, but school or some other aspect of life interferes, you may need to withdraw - thereby withdrawing your entire team. I am sure that won't sit well with your teammates who booked travel an extra day (or two) in order to be part of the team.

I do think team events, if handled right, would be a great *addition* to the calendar. Unfortunately, the poor planning for these team events will likely result in future team events being scuttled.

[pillow]

I actually think there will be quite a few teams signed up - even though the team events are poorly advertised. The challenge will be getting those teams to show up.

If you sign up for a team 8 weeks ahead of the event, but school or some other aspect of life interferes, you may need to withdraw - thereby withdrawing your entire team. I am sure that won't sit well with your teammates who booked travel an extra day (or two) in order to be part of the team.

I do think team events, if handled right, would be a great *addition* to the calendar. Unfortunately, the poor planning for these team events will likely result in future team events being scuttled.

That was the point I raised with Dan B. earlier. Team events are great, but what ideas can we come up with to make the schedule work better for team events at a NAC, with only a limited number of days? Plus the fact that many fencers I know will not exert themselves for a team on the day between points events, plus they will not pay the cost of early arrival or late departure if the event is the first or last day. What solutions can we think of?

I would also guess that there will be very few, if any teams for the first and last day. Maybe some for the middle days, but perhaps not enough for a really good field. Hope I'm wrong, as we all love teams.

[dberke]

That was the point I raised with Dan B. earlier. Team events are great, but what ideas can we come up with to make the schedule work better for team events at a NAC, with only a limited number of days? Plus the fact that many fencers I know will not exert themselves for a team on the day between points events, plus they will not pay the cost of early arrival or late departure if the event is the first or last day. What solutions can we think of?

I agree that the issues you raise are valid for some people, but again I'd like to invite you to come up with a schedule that minimizes those problems and is actually physically possible. Until you can provide a solution that is better than the current one in use, I won't be convinced that the current one is bad.

I postulate that a number of alternative schedules were considered, but given the time and space constraints, the one they came up with was the best balance for everyone. I don't think they just threw darts at the wall when planning this.

I would also guess that there will be very few, if any teams for the first and last day. Maybe some for the middle days, but perhaps not enough for a really good field. Hope I'm wrong, as we all love teams.

I can see the junior team men's saber event being a bit smaller, but I still think it'll have at least 12-16 teams. I think WF on Friday will be well over 16 teams.

Dan

[misha]

Plus the fact that many fencers I know will not exert themselves for a team on the day between points events, plus they will not pay the cost of early arrival or late departure if the event is the first or last day. What solutions can we think of?

Give out individual points for the team events?

FIE Team events are main Olympic qualifier path.
We are introducing team events to train experience in team format.
Rewarding good results with points to qualify for the US Team seems logical...

.

[pillow]

I agree that the issues you raise are valid for some people, but again I'd like to invite you to come up with a schedule that minimizes those problems and is actually physically possible. Until you can provide a solution that is better than the current one in use, I won't be convinced that the current one is bad.

I postulate that a number of alternative schedules were considered, but given the time and space constraints, the one they came up with was the best balance for everyone. I don't think they just threw darts at the wall when planning this.



I can see the junior team men's saber event being a bit smaller, but I still think it'll have at least 12-16 teams. I think WF on Friday will be well over 16 teams.

Dan

I certainly see the problem, and I do hope that you are correct, and the numbers of the teams are not as low I feel they are going to be.

As I suggested before, I do not feel every weapon must have a team event at NAC D or the JOs. Do half the team events at each of those NACs. No events will be left out, so people cannot complain they did not get a chance to fence a team event.

Another idea to make this work is to have the team event in the evening, BUT do it on the last day of the last individual event for that weapon. I think if a fencer is done with the individuals, they would be more likely to fence a team event for fun with their friends. Most will not be flying out that night anyway. As I said earlier, what coach wants any fencer (top ranked or not) to get tired fencing a team on the off day? What parent will pay the extra hotel fee and accept another day of missed school? Probably very few.

I also like Misha's idea about points. Since fencers and parents are like lemmings and would follow the points over a cliff, why not give some bonus points for the individual rolling points list based on the team result? It's no more crazy than giving a 1.5 SF to a Cadet Designated that pays more points than a Div I. The bonus points could also be used somehow by the USFA to seed the Junior Team at the SN (provided the new schedule is killed) and we still have the events as done currently.

[KD5MDK]

So if I can round up 2 13 year olds beginners and a really good fencer who can be the anchor and win from 20 point deficits, those beginners should get Junior points?

That said, I think it would be practical to make teams a qualifying path to JOs, except that they're too close. If we added Team events to NAC B it would be feasible.

[pillow]

So if I can round up 2 13 year olds beginners and a really good fencer who can be the anchor and win from 20 point deficits, those beginners should get Junior points?

That said, I think it would be practical to make teams a qualifying path to JOs, except that they're too close. If we added Team events to NAC B it would be feasible.

I think your point is really that the institution of team events is a good idea, but the USFA really needed to think out a clear, workable, attractive, not extra-expense inducing method of team events at multiple NACs. Not just shoehorn them in for Jan and Feb as has been done.

[hello?]

I have to say that I see the team events as just "extra fun if it happens to fit your schedule." I am not opposed to that. (Wish the fun could include all ages, though, but that's just me being old).

If you are a junior "C," for example, I see a big plus: you get to fly to San Jose to all of a sudden fence two events, instead of just one where you are likely going to do badly -- all of a sudden, it's worthwhile 'fencing-bout wise.' (Speaking on behalf of a club-mate......Of course, the same would apply to a Vet C...but, alas...)

The problem is having to say who the actual team-members are so far in advance. As has been pointed out before, that IS hard to do.

Regardless, I am all for the team events. I am quite confident that they WILL be fun. for those eligible......(That said, not sure that they will help train our super-fencers to fence as teams, since the teams are likely to be all over the place due to the registration deadline, conflict with Div 1 events the next day, or unavoidable bad scheduling issues such as the one for MS).... If we accept them as just "freebie fun thingies" from the USFA (and if the registration deadlines would somehow make room for withdrawals or change-of-fencers), I am sure (no, not really, who am I kidding?) that everyone would say: "What a GREAT idea! More fencing, if you can wing it! I can endorse this!"

[pillow]

I have to say that I see the team events as just "extra fun if it happens to fit your schedule." I am not opposed to that. (Wish the fun could include all ages, though, but that's just me being old).

If you are a junior "C," for example, I see a big plus: you get to fly to San Jose to all of a sudden fence two events, instead of just one where you are likely going to do badly -- all of a sudden, it's worthwhile 'fencing-bout wise.' (Speaking on behalf of a club-mate......Of course, the same would apply to a Vet C...but, alas...)

The problem is having to say who the actual team-members are so far in advance. As has been pointed out before, that IS hard to do.

Regardless, I am all for the team events. I am quite confident that they WILL be fun. for those eligible......(That said, not sure that they will help train our super-fencers to fence as teams, since the teams are likely to be all over the place due to the registration deadline, conflict with Div 1 events the next day, or unavoidable bad scheduling issues such as the one for MS).... If we accept them as just "freebie fun thingies" from the USFA (and if the registration deadlines would somehow make room for withdrawals or change-of-fencers), I am sure (no, not really, who am I kidding?) that everyone would say: "What a GREAT idea! More fencing, if you can wing it! I can endorse this!"

Agreed. See my post #34 above. ANYONE who thinks a team relay event at a NAC has ANYTHING to do with training a select group of fencers for international team events at a Senior WC or Junior/Senior World Champs is in another universe.

[pillow]

How are we doing for team registration for NAC D for any of the weapons? Anyone have info from the Cadets and Juniors at NAC B as to whether any fencers or coaches are interested in these team events given the schedule?

[misha]

So if I can round up 2 13 year olds beginners and a really good fencer who can be the anchor and win from 20 point deficits, those beginners should get Junior points?

Such a team can success a local competition, may be.

With wide and strong NAC field and relay format it is highly unlikely.

1) Not many fencers are that much better than the rest of the field
2) If they are that better than the rest of the field
most likely there will be other worthy fencers in their club
(good fencers attract other good fencers; good fencers usually do not
become really good without being constantly challenged by other good fencers)

If such a fluke occurs once in a while I would be ok with it.
We get much stronger team events and a lot of fencers will get exposed
to really competitive team events, not just meaningless nationals once a year.
So if once in a while a scrub gets into a points list, so what?
They will not qualify for the National Team just from one team event...

.