Mistakes Referees Make When

[Superscribe]

The espn article about that SEC wahoo inspired me to start a blog, which inspired me to start a post instead. A ref in fencing is much more involved than a ref in many other sports, like football. I incorporate them into my game. How a ref sees actions dictates how i'll be fencing. As a result, they get a lot of attention. A result of all this attention are some pet peeves that i've developed. I'd like to list them, and encourage discussion about these, and other pet peeves you might have.

1) They look at you when the call is against you, and give you this patronizing expression and nod like "i'm really sorry, but i saw a parry instead of a beat". What it looks like to me is "yeeeeahh, i don't wanna screw you out of this touch, but i'm going too." Stop trying to sympathize with me.

2) Ref's that stop the action inconsistently. Sometimes i should have plenty of time to parry and riposte with a little infighting, and they stop the action. Then, in the same bout, they'll let the phrase continue even when my WEAPON is tangled in the bodycord of my opponent, who is now behind me.

3) Ref's that get angry when they say halt too softly, and i keep fencing. I won't even complain about not being able to hear your calls, but the reason i keep trying to puncture my opponent is because I haven't heard you call me off yet, and you've proven to be inconsistent in when you stop the action. Being able to make audible calls for halt is a requirement of reffing. Not speaking loud enough is your fault.

4) Sloppily dressed ref's. A buttoned up shirt with no tie and that is wrinkly looks awful.

5) Ref's that feel like they have to make a call. You can abstain. Your confused look and unsure raising of the hand to award me a point makes you look confused and unsure, and makes me feel awkward for getting the touch. Just say you're unsure. IT'S OKAY.

6) ref's that reverse the hand signals until the very end when they award the point. In my mind i'm like "oh my gosh she gave me the riposte, she gave me the riposte... awww"

7) ref's that dont' have a yellow card on them, but will scour the entire tournament to find that yellow card so they can present the yellow card.

8) ref's that talk about how much they drank the last night and how they shouldn't be directing because they can't sort out actions. I mean that is so cool.

9) ref's that try to direct in french, but cannot pronounce adroite and a gauche for the life of them.

[seven6ty]

Eh, I really don't care how a ref dresses... It's not a fashion show, and if it were, they'd choose something besides blue blazers and grey slacks.

I just hate it when they constantly hurry you into fencing. Like you haven't even made it back to your en guard line and they're already asking if you're ready? It makes me want to stop dead in my tracks and just ask if I look like I'm ready. Heh, sorry, I just really hate that one.

[catwood1]

1) They look at you when the call is against you, and give you this patronizing expression and nod like "i'm really sorry, but i saw a parry instead of a beat". What it looks like to me is "yeeeeahh, i don't wanna screw you out of this touch, but i'm going too." Stop trying to sympathize with me.

Well, referees should keep an eye on the fencer that lost the touch, especially in epee, to make sure they're not fiddling around with their weapon. That said, a ref shouldn't be starring at the fencer who lost the touch. Although they do have to look somewhere...

2) Ref's that stop the action inconsistently. Sometimes i should have plenty of time to parry and riposte with a little infighting, and they stop the action. Then, in the same bout, they'll let the phrase continue even when my WEAPON is tangled in the bodycord of my opponent, who is now behind me.

Refs should always have a reason for calling halt. Consistency is good, but correctness is better. Maybe I called an early halt a few touches ago, next time I'll try and get it right. And on a side note, delaying saying the word halt is wayyy better then saying it too early. If you say the word late, you can "place" the halt whenever you like.

3) Ref's that get angry when they say halt too softly, and i keep fencing. I won't even complain about not being able to hear your calls, but the reason i keep trying to puncture my opponent is because I haven't heard you call me off yet, and you've proven to be inconsistent in when you stop the action. Being able to make audible calls for halt is a requirement of reffing. Not speaking loud enough is your fault.

In my experience, there are 2 ways I say halt. 1 is when there was clearly a touch, both fencers know it, and me saying the word is merely a formality. I tend to be kinda quiet in that case. However, when I'm calling halt for another reason, I try and be much louder so that both fencers can clearly hear me.

Not being loud enough might be our fault, but not hearing the ref is you're fault.

4) Sloppily dressed ref's. A buttoned up shirt with no tie and that is wrinkly looks awful.

I agree refs should be properly attired, but a dress shirt with no tie is fine IMHO. Of course, it always depends on what the event is. A local D3, I might wear my US Fencing polo ****, but if I'm reffing a NAC I'll be in blues and greys. You want to consider relaxing your standards just a tad.

5) Ref's that feel like they have to make a call. You can abstain. Your confused look and unsure raising of the hand to award me a point makes you look confused and unsure, and makes me feel awkward for getting the touch. Just say you're unsure. IT'S OKAY.

Refs are trained to make calls. We try to make a correct call on every action. I personally try and abstain as little as possible.* On every action there is a correct call to be made. Good refs try and see what the correct call is. Granted, a ref shouldn't look unsure as awarding a touch. If you can't look confident while making a call, you shouldn't make the call. (You also probably shouldn't be reffing, but thats a different issue.)

6) ref's that reverse the hand signals until the very end when they award the point. In my mind i'm like "oh my gosh she gave me the riposte, she gave me the riposte... awww"

Ugh, I dislike refs using their own version of hand signals. Its not that hard to learn... I totally agree

7) ref's that dont' have a yellow card on them, but will scour the entire tournament to find that yellow card so they can present the yellow card.

Never seen it. I agree though. If you don't have a card with you, just say it. (or use something yellow on your person if its a relaxed event.)

8) ref's that talk about how much they drank the last night and how they shouldn't be directing because they can't sort out actions. I mean that is so cool.

In my experience, the majority of refs that I've heard talking like this are really some of the best refs out there. Personally, if a ref can drink all night then ref the next day, I'm fine with it. I encourage refs to do everything possible to work at the best of their abilities, but we've gotta have some fun.

I know alot of NAC refs that can drink all night and referee with very high percentage or correct calls the next day.

9) ref's that try to direct in french, but cannot pronounce adroite and a gauche for the life of them.

[/quote]

Meh. If they get the calls right, I couldn't care less about what language they're using


Just my .02...

*Insert joke here

[parrythis]

I'll add a couple:

10) Refs that deny a fencer their 10 minute recovery time between bouts saying that, "they have to leave the tournament and be somewhere else", then hang around and are one of the last people to leave.

11) Refs that make disparaging remarks about fencers that are not members of their club.

Yes - I've seen both happen. Coincidentally, the same ref.

[telkanuru]

10) Refs that deny a fencer their 10 minute recovery time between bouts saying that, "they have to leave the tournament and be somewhere else", then hang around and are one of the last people to leave.

Yeah, good luck trying to short me my 10 minutes.

My favorite kind of ref is the bombastic but incompetent kind who has to referee two epeeists who are friends and really know how to mess with the rules

[Superscribe]

Well, referees should keep an eye on the fencer that lost the touch, especially in epee, to make sure they're not fiddling around with their weapon. That said, a ref shouldn't be starring at the fencer who lost the touch. Although they do have to look somewhere...

it's the stupid expression that that peeves me

In my experience, there are 2 ways I say halt. 1 is when there was clearly a touch, both fencers know it, and me saying the word is merely a formality. I tend to be kinda quiet in that case. However, when I'm calling halt for another reason, I try and be much louder so that both fencers can clearly hear me.

This is the attitude that's gotten me tagged as i was walking back to my line, because it's very possible a clear touch didn't go off. I'm not going to assume when to stop. The ref stops the action. Not me, not the lights, not a beep, not the other fencer. Just sayin.


I agree refs should be properly attired, but a dress shirt with no tie is fine IMHO. Of course, it always depends on what the event is. A local D3, I might wear my US Fencing polo ****, but if I'm reffing a NAC I'll be in blues and greys. You want to consider relaxing your standards just a tad.

Dress shirts are fine. Just don't button it up to the top. That's hideous. I didn't say i didn't like button ups. I said i didn't like wrinkly and buttonED up.

I know alot of NAC refs that can drink all night and referee with very high percentage or correct calls the next day.

just think how high it could be without drinking? That's neither here nor there. I don't care if they drink. I've drank with them. I just don't want to hear about it, and i think it's unprofessional to talk about it.

My replies in bold.

[Allen Evans]

Not being loud enough might be our fault, but not hearing the ref is you're fault.

Please explain how these two statements make sense together?

8) ref's that talk about how much they drank the last night and how they shouldn't be directing because they can't sort out actions. I mean that is so cool.

In my experience, the majority of refs that I've heard talking like this are really some of the best refs out there. Personally, if a ref can drink all night then ref the next day, I'm fine with it.

I know alot of NAC refs that can drink all night and referee with very high percentage or correct calls the next day.

Do you really believe this? Frankly, I've seen a few referees after they've closed down the same bar I was in, and they weren't worth $&$^* the next day (I was NOT refereeing those days). The referees in question just thought they were making good calls, which is not quite the same.

If I can make great split second decisions as a hung-over referee, that would seem to imply that I would also make great decisions if I was, say, operating an automobile hung over, flying a plane, or operating machinery.

Does that make any sort of sense?

[notalent]

Eh, I really don't care how a ref dresses... It's not a fashion show, and if it were, they'd choose something besides blue blazers and grey slacks.

I just hate it when they constantly hurry you into fencing. Like you haven't even made it back to your en guard line and they're already asking if you're ready? It makes me want to stop dead in my tracks and just ask if I look like I'm ready. Heh, sorry, I just really hate that one.

I tend to see this when the fencers have started taking long walks to the end of the strip and the come back adjust their socks, tie their shoes, play with the body cord, retie their shoes, fix their hair. Basically stalling.

[seven6ty]

That, I can understand. But I think I've found it much more common for refs who just don't have any patience and who don't even give you an adequate amount of time to trot back to the guard line.

[Rockstar44]

I love Directors who, when I respond to their strip call, instead of telling me what the problem is, try to tell my what the solution is.

[Displacement]

Please explain how these two statements make sense together?






Do you really believe this? Frankly, I've seen a few referees after they've closed down the same bar I was in, and they weren't worth $&$^* the next day (I was NOT refereeing those days). The referees in question just thought they were making good calls, which is not quite the same.

If I can make great split second decisions as a hung-over referee, that would seem to imply that I would also make great decisions if I was, say, operating an automobile hung over, flying a plane, or operating machinery.

Does that make any sort of sense?

Yes, it makes sense. I don't like People, let alone Reffs that feel the need to talk about their drinking exploits. I'ts always the beginning of a real boring story. Go ahead and drink, just don't tell me about it.

And Reffing in French at a USFA event is just dumb.

[Insipiens]

Well, referees should keep an eye on the fencer that lost the touch, especially in epee, to make sure they're not fiddling around with their weapon. That said, a ref shouldn't be starring at the fencer who lost the touch. Although they do have to look somewhere...

Why exactly? In case they are trying to get their magic button to work and give them a hit?

In my experience, there are 2 ways I say halt. 1 is when there was clearly a touch, both fencers know it, and me saying the word is merely a formality. I tend to be kinda quiet in that case. However, when I'm calling halt for another reason, I try and be much louder so that both fencers can clearly hear me.

Not being loud enough might be our fault, but not hearing the ref is you're fault.

Bollocks. Have you not seen the "clearly a touch" actions in foil where no light comes on and both fencers think they have scored a hit? Given that ni foil in particular fencers need to hear a clear halt. If it's a halt you have to call halt audibly regardless of the reason for the halt. You really shouldn't be presuming that the fencers got it right. They have a right to expect you to be the one to stop the action. It really is your fault if the fencers don't hear you call halt.

I agree refs should be properly attired, but a dress shirt with no tie is fine IMHO. Of course, it always depends on what the event is. A local D3, I might wear my US Fencing polo ****, but if I'm reffing a NAC I'll be in blues and greys. You want to consider relaxing your standards just a tad.

"dress shirt" must mean something different in the US. In England it means one of those frilly/fancy shirts you wear with black tie.

In my experience, the majority of refs that I've heard talking like this are really some of the best refs out there. Personally, if a ref can drink all night then ref the next day, I'm fine with it. I encourage refs to do everything possible to work at the best of their abilities, but we've gotta have some fun.

I know alot of NAC refs that can drink all night and referee with very high percentage or correct calls the next day.

What Allen said.

[notalent]

And Reffing in French at a USFA event is just dumb.

Sometimes you get a foreign national that doesn't speak english
, they get french.

[catwood1]

Reason to keep an eye on fencers that have lost the touch: If they turn around bend their blade so that the tip touches the bell guard, whack it against the ground 5 times, then ask to test, its important that the ref know he shouldn't annul a touch.

In terms of using a different tone of voice to call halt: If both fencers know a hit has been made, and have already stopped fencing, it is pretty dumb for me to yell out HALT as loud as I can. I just look like a buffoon. If they're still fencing, I'll say it more loudly. That said, if they're going at it, and I yell out HALT in the voice I regularly do and there is one fencer that doesn't stop, its not really my fault. There are some fencers that have selective hearing with things like halt... I'll probably try and be a little louder next time, but don't blame it entirely on the refs.

I agree its generally unprofessional to talk to fencers you're reffing about how much you were drinking, that just sounds like a terrible idea. I don't see the problem with talking to other refs about it. If you don't want to engage in a conversation like that, don't engage in it. If refs want to talk about what bars are good, let them.

I see your point Allen, but I still disagree. There are definitely refs who's performance degrades after drinking alot the night before. There are also refs who's performance doesn't. From a personal standpoint, I haven't found there to be a significant change in my performance based on whether I was drinking the night before. There are a number of other factors that affect my performance wayyy more than alcohol the night before.

Its also a valid distinction between drinking all night and being hung over, as they're not necessarily the same thing.

And ANYONE, referee or otherwise, wears a dress shirt without a tie, but has the top button buttoned, they lose some serious respect in my book.

[Purple Fencer]

3) Ref's that get angry when they say halt too softly, and i keep fencing. I won't even complain about not being able to hear your calls, but the reason i keep trying to puncture my opponent is because I haven't heard you call me off yet, and you've proven to be inconsistent in when you stop the action. Being able to make audible calls for halt is a requirement of reffing. Not speaking loud enough is your fault.

Or refs that say Halt about 20 times loudly...after a couple, the fencers have stopped, but the ref's got a head of steam up and keeps going...

4) Sloppily dressed ref's. A buttoned up shirt with no tie and that is wrinkly looks awful.

Oh I don't know...there's a ref on this board who's famous for his black trenchcoat while directing...

5) Ref's that feel like they have to make a call. You can abstain. Your confused look and unsure raising of the hand to award me a point makes you look confused and unsure, and makes me feel awkward for getting the touch. Just say you're unsure. IT'S OKAY.

Don't have that problem...."if in doubt, throw it out" was one of the first things I learned during my first few classes way back in 81.

6) ref's that reverse the hand signals until the very end when they award the point. In my mind i'm like "oh my gosh she gave me the riposte, she gave me the riposte... awww"

I habitually do them....maybe not crisp enough for Derek Cotton, but they're there about 80% of the time.

7) ref's that dont' have a yellow card on them, but will scour the entire tournament to find that yellow card so they can present the yellow card.

Heh....one time I had to red card a guy for his 2nd weapon being across the gym after his first one failed shims...he gets back and I'm holding up my Ralph's card....which was red.

A peeve of mine....refs that pull rules out of their ass, like red carding a fencer for a weapon that failed ON the strip DURING the fencing (Notalent knows who I mean). I don't see it very often, but when I do, it's pretty obvious.

[notalent]

Oh I don't know...there's a ref on this board who's famous for his black trenchcoat while directing...
.

Loooooser ;D

[Purple Fencer]

Loooooser ;D

I keep thinking I'm walking into an episode of "Buffy" when I see that guy...

[downunder]

Understand the gripes, everything else is covered in low level refereeing seminars.

1) They look at you when the call is against you, and give you this patronizing expression and nod like "i'm really sorry, but i saw a parry instead of a beat". What it looks like to me is "yeeeeahh, i don't wanna screw you out of this touch, but i'm going too." Stop trying to sympathize with me.

Internationally, we use "pour moi" or "for me" and then phrase it for the tight attack/counterattack or beat/parry. Call it as we see it. Usually fencers acknowledge attack/counterattack even if it's really tight, beat/parry is hard because we're really looking for who is controlling the action.

6) ref's that reverse the hand signals until the very end when they award the point. In my mind i'm like "oh my gosh she gave me the riposte, she gave me the riposte... awww"

Come on now, surely the fun in phrasing it properly and the look of horror in one fencers face when you signal 'parry before 'parry counter riposte' is worth millions for any referee. Personally I phrase the final action only.

9) ref's that try to direct in french, but cannot pronounce adroite and a gauche for the life of them.

We don't usually use droite and gauche in our phrasing.

[telkanuru]

Come on now, surely the fun in phrasing it properly and the look of horror in one fencers face when you signal 'parry before 'parry counter riposte' is worth millions for any referee. Personally I phrase the final action only.
.

Or giving a nice long pause.

"Attack....... is parried"

[Purple Fencer]

Or giving a nice long pause.

"Attack....... is parried"

That's just mean....FUNNY...but mean!