Impact of new calendar on clubs

[kelly Palmedo]

Hi F.NETTERS,

I haven't posted on here in a couple of years and feel inclined to do so
after thinking a lot about the new tournament schedule.
As I understand it the new schedule will be:

Only 2 DIV 1 NACS and an April Championship
(season is Dec-April)

Only 1 Y14 NAC (no Y10, Y12 NACS) and a June youth Championship (Y10, Y12, Y14) with the expectation that youth fencers and their coaches will attend an SYC

Only 2 Cadet and 2 Junior NACS with the addition of Junior Teams and JO's are national Championships ( cadet/Junior season will be Sept-Feb; only those on Div 1 points will still need to train for April)

Summer Nat's will be Vets, Div 2,3,1a and Senior Teams

If I am wrong about this, I know you will all feel free to correct me!

My reaction to the proposed schedule as a mother of a competitive fencer with lots of other interests is mixed.

It is great for children as whole people; their fencing seasons will go from endless to a few months of the year and they will have time to develop the other interests and talents they have in life as well as work on getting their body symmetrical again! Families will have time to do other kinds of trips!! Yeah!!

But if I was a club owner, I would be very nervous about it...Why will people spend money on multiple lessons and camps and attendance if the next tournament is half a year away? I know I am a cash cow to our club and our spending and my daughter's time at club will decrease dramatically...which also means our daughter's potential may decrease as well (who knows, time off might just be what she needs!)....and the other sports and activities may become more important to her and possibly her main focus, as she will have 6 months off a year. She could continue training...but why? Training in a vacuum for a kid is pointless...

I think that there will be huge impacts on small clubs that the powers that be haven't thought about. And small clubs with just a few students could be hit the hardest.

KP

[pillow]

Hi F.NETTERS,

I haven't posted on here in a couple of years and feel inclined to do so
after thinking a lot about the new tournament schedule.
As I understand it the new schedule will be:

Only 2 DIV 1 NACS and an April Championship
(season is Dec-April)

Only 1 Y14 NAC (no Y10, Y12 NACS) and a June youth Championship (Y10, Y12, Y14) with the expectation that youth fencers and their coaches will attend an SYC

Only 2 Cadet and 2 Junior NACS with the additional of Junior Teams and JO's are national Championships ( cadet/Junior season will be Sept-Feb; only those on Div 1 points will stillneed to train for April)

Summer Nat's will be Vets, Div 2,3,1a and Senior Teams

If I am wrong about this, I know you will all feel free to correct me!

My reaction to the proposed schedule as a mother of a competitive fencer with lots of other interests is mixed.

It is great for children as whole people; their fencing seasons will go from endless to a few months of the year and they will have time to develop the other interests and talents they have in life as well as work on getting their body
symmetrical again! Families will have time to do other kinds of trips!! Yeah!!

But if I was a club owner, I would be very nervous about it...Why will people spend money on multiple lessons and camps and attendance if the next tournament is half a year away? I know I am a cash cow to our club and our spending and my daughter's time at club will decrease dramatically...which also means our daughter's potential may decrease as well (who knows, time off might just be what she needs!)....and the other sports and activities may become more important to her and possibly her main focus, as she will have 6 months off a year. She could continue training...but why? Training in a vacuum for a kid is pointless...

I think that there will be huge impacts on small clubs that the powers that be haven't thought about. And small clubs with just a few students could be hit the hardest.

KP

The new schedule is a disaster. Please look at page 2, where I have posted the main thread on this subject called "New Schedule for Non-Vets" Please revive the thread by putting your post above on that thread.

[1337]

summer nationals does not have cadets or juniors or the youth events anymore?

[oiuyt]

summer nationals does not have cadets or juniors or the youth events anymore?

There is a proposed calendar which would remove cadet, junior, division I, junior team, Y10, Y12, and Y14 events from Summer Nationals, reducing the tournament from ten to six days. It would retain veterans events, Div III, Div II, Div IA, and senior team.

Junior Olympics would be the National Championships tournament for cadets and juniors. It may become the National Championships tournament for junior team (team events are being run on a trial basis at JOs 2010).

The Division I National Championships and Division I Team National Championships would take place in late April, replacing the April NAC (Div I/Y10/Y12/Y14) that we currently have.

A Youth Festival will be run some time in June for Y10 and Y12 and as the National Championships in Y14. I believe it is anticipated that Y14 team events will also be included.

The proposal will be presented to the Board for a vote at the February meeting.

2010 Summer Nationals will have cadet, junior and youth events.

-B

[1337]

will all respect, what a STUPID idea.

[pillow]

will all respect, what a STUPID idea.

It sounds like you have come late to the party, but your comment is perfectly on target. The proposed schedule is a disaster. I must rep Brad however, for giving such a perfect summary of the extremely unwise changes in that schedule. I urge you to go to the thread called "New Schedule for Non-Veteran Fencers" and read it, and then send your comments to the USFA.

[pillow]

There is a proposed calendar which would remove cadet, junior, division I, junior team, Y10, Y12, and Y14 events from Summer Nationals, reducing the tournament from ten to six days. It would retain veterans events, Div III, Div II, Div IA, and senior team.

Junior Olympics would be the National Championships tournament for cadets and juniors. It may become the National Championships tournament for junior team (team events are being run on a trial basis at JOs 2010).

The Division I National Championships and Division I Team National Championships would take place in late April, replacing the April NAC (Div I/Y10/Y12/Y14) that we currently have.

A Youth Festival will be run some time in June for Y10 and Y12 and as the National Championships in Y14. I believe it is anticipated that Y14 team events will also be included.

The proposal will be presented to the Board for a vote at the February meeting.

2010 Summer Nationals will have cadet, junior and youth events.

-B

Brad,

You say above that the 2010 Summer Nationals will have cadet, junior and youth. Div I Champs should be at SN as well, unless someone has changed the April Div I NAC before the vote scheduled for Feb?

[edew]

will all respect, what a STUPID idea.

I don't exactly think so. Maybe the dates might not be great, but ultimately, if fencing continues to grow, the Summer Nationals model will no longer be sustainable. I recall some proposed ideas of such sorts were passed around in 2006 at the Atlanta SN. The SNs are getting way too big, so eventually, we have to split the events to other days to make them manageable.

The best way is to put them in tournaments that look "similar". Of course, for those who plan to attend across multiple age and skill categories, it will require more travel. Similarly for the coaches. But it has to be done eventually. Maybe the dates could be better, like having the youth events after school is over (late June, perhaps?).

[oiuyt]

Brad,

You say above that the 2010 Summer Nationals will have cadet, junior and youth. Div I Champs should be at SN as well, unless someone has changed the April Div I NAC before the vote scheduled for Feb?

Yes, the Division I National Championships will also take place at the 2010 Summer Nationals in Atlanta. I didn't include it in the final sentence of my previous post because 1337 hadn't asked about them.

-B

[teacup]

Maybe the dates could be better, like having the youth events after school is over (late June, perhaps?).

Or late May, Memorial Day weekend perhaps?

[kelly Palmedo]

Thanks for the concise summary Brad.

I can see why Eric (or Edward as it may be to some) doesn't have a problem with the change as the bay area is lucky to have a strong regional fencing program with several cooperative large clubs and the bay cup as well as people who help host and run SYC's and ROC's....

But for people from geographic areas other than the bay area and the East Coast (which never suffers from a lack of competitive tourneys... ), there is not that support to keep people competitive or interested in a long off season....

If it does pass in February, I hope some one will lobby for the Team event at Y14 Nationals, and the NAC team events to be open to composite teams from anywhere. The application for NAC D specifies that the members must come from the same division.

The smaller regions often struggle with having the right numbers and ages to field a team.

[edew]

Kelly,

I don't see it as a problem or non-problem, but more of a necessity, as the demographics of the sport evolves. I hope to see more regionalization (which has been evangelized by me and others) so that there will be sufficient local and regional competition in the Pacific Northwest. And such events will necessarily take place as the number of fencers grow. Whether they will occur in the time frame that will make a (positive) impact on Sage's competitive experience in fencing, I can't say.

Maybe the transition to this new national schedule is too soon. Maybe it's already too late. It's tough to say without significant hindsight. But a reasonable ten-year planning process must account for the current and continued growth of the sport and how to address the need to keep the competition sizes reasonable.

[nyacfencing]

I don't exactly think so. Maybe the dates might not be great, but ultimately, if fencing continues to grow, the Summer Nationals model will no longer be sustainable. I recall some proposed ideas of such sorts were passed around in 2006 at the Atlanta SN. The SNs are getting way too big, so eventually, we have to split the events to other days to make them manageable.

The best way is to put them in tournaments that look "similar". Of course, for those who plan to attend across multiple age and skill categories, it will require more travel. Similarly for the coaches. But it has to be done eventually. Maybe the dates could be better, like having the youth events after school is over (late June, perhaps?).

I agree. There used to be only 4 events at National Championships in each weapon: Division 1, Division 2, Team and U19. And you'd only have around 70-90 entries per event. Then the USFA went bezerk about 10 years ago and added quadrupled the events, creating many more than were possible given the growth curve. We now have in the area of 17 events per-weapon including D1, D1A, D2, D3, D1 Team, Senior Team, U19, U19 Team, U16, Y14, Y12, Y10, and all the various wheelchair and veteran events which are too numerous to remember. With entries as astronomically as they are, something needs to be done. It simply isn't possible for the USFA to have multi-week marathons given the available time, space, and personnel resources.

The only option the USFA has is to break this up. And the only break-up that makes sense is to divide based on common factors. We essentially have two cadet/junior national championships every year in the current model. It makes perfect sense to combine the JO and Junior NC events. The remaining breakouts are obvious based on the groups participating in each.

The USFA wants to offer members as much fencing as possible... but at some point you have to deal with the reality of the situation. These are the "good" growing pains that we need to go through if we are going to continue growing our sport.

[pillow]

I agree. There used to be only 4 events at National Championships in each weapon: Division 1, Division 2, Team and U19. And you'd only have around 70-90 entries per event. Then the USFA went bezerk about 10 years ago and added quadrupled the events, creating many more than were possible given the growth curve. We now have in the area of 17 events per-weapon including D1, D1A, D2, D3, D1 Team, Senior Team, U19, U19 Team, U16, Y14, Y12, Y10, and all the various wheelchair and veteran events which are too numerous to remember. With entries as astronomically as they are, something needs to be done. It simply isn't possible for the USFA to have multi-week marathons given the available time, space, and personnel resources.

The only option the USFA has is to break this up. And the only break-up that makes sense is to divide based on common factors. We essentially have two cadet/junior national championships every year in the current model. It makes perfect sense to combine the JO and Junior NC events. The remaining breakouts are obvious based on the groups participating in each.

The USFA wants to offer members as much fencing as possible... but at some point you have to deal with the reality of the situation. These are the "good" growing pains that we need to go through if we are going to continue growing our sport.

I couldn't disagree more. The Summer Nationals and the current schedule are fine the way they are. What you call a multi-week marathon is actually an excellent event with many opportunities for fencers of all ages and abilities. The events run better and more smoothly than at many NACs.

I would urge you to read the original post on the thread called "New Schedule for Non-Vet Fencers," and I challenge you to explain why you think the schedule should be changed.

[kelly Palmedo]

I agree that Summer Nat's might be too big to deal with and I understand why that event is being restructured (although it is the one event where everyone can be together....)...but to do away with a NAC in each age division and cut seasons by half seems way out of line...

It will give domestic fencers one less shot at qualifying for teams or to even qualify to compete internationally for teams and will protect the status quo...as well as confirm that only the rich or willing to go broke families will have their children make it......I have been talking to lots of people who are aging out of Juniors and they are frustrated that the USFA is talking about taking away a DIV 1; one less domestic chance to make a team..If their season is Dec-April, they aren't so sure they want to do things like postpone college for a year or take a years leave absence to go for it....

I also wonder how much of the ROC business is about money...some of those supporting the new schedules organize ROC's and see a profit.. Its the little divisions(I was a chair for four years)and the little clubs I am worried about....and the coaches who have been in it for the love...who are already on the brink of not making it....i really think private lessons in areas without the ROC's and an infrastructure will be impacted.. If you don't have a competition in 6 months, why would you pay for lessons???..Eric, I am not so worried about Sage; it will actually give her a chance to play music, volleyball, tennis, ski, basketball, act, paint, all the other stuff she loves....but i really do think it will hurt the clubs and take away enthusiasm to have such long breaks....

I also know quite a few families who have adult veteran fencers and children fencers..having a meet with the two of them together is part of the love for these families...under the new plan that will no longer exist.....

[hello?]

, but ultimately, if fencing continues to grow, the Summer Nationals model will no longer be sustainable....so eventually, we have to split the events to other days to make them manageable...it has to be done eventually. .

Eventually...when....if. That does not mean the year after next!!! (Unless, of course, Tim's 10,000 Fencers start fencing nationally within the next ten months. Then, of course, all bets are off.) In fact, every time I've seen year-to-year comparisons, it seems that our national events are either amazingly consistent -- or getting smaller (not a surprise in this economy). Have I gotten this wrong? (I might have.)

Plus, as people in other threads have posted already, if the events ARE growing and becoming unmanageable, then let's figure out a way to manage them better! Not do away with them!!! I bet if we HIRED a select group of people (from Prise de Fer, plus some current NAC/SN managers) and gave them a couple of months to work with our national office, they could figure a way to improve our current events. That said, in the time that I have been involved with fencing, I've already seen a HUGE improvement in the way NACs and SNs are run. In that respect, I APPLAUD the National office. I don't see these events as huge disasters. OK, maybe every three NACs I'm annoyed by having to wait 40 minutes or, as a Vet fencing on the last day of SN, I am upset at having no strips to warm up...but long gone (it seems) are the days where youth events were finishing at 1 a.m. (Was that the Austin SN? Not sure.) In addition, all but the smallest, December NAC seem to be actually making MONEY -- a huge feat for our USFA.

And, speaking of money -- and this economy -- the fact that the proposed schedule might mean more travel for some (or no travel at all -- the cash-strapped fencers deciding to simply forego some of the much-reduced NACs), or end up hurting the coaches and clubs, is HUGE. Not to be dismissed as a minor 'inconvenience' that we have to put up with for the Bigger Good. There is no Bigger Good here. Most people I have talked to about this proposal are totally baffled (to put it mildly).

I agree with those who believe the proposed schedule is ridiculous. I am relieved the VET NACs survived the initial suggestion to get rid of them (although I am still waiting to see when they will happen and what events they will be paired with), but I think Summer Nationals 2011 will be one sad, sad, pathetic event.

[hello?]

Then the USFA went bezerk about 10 years ago and added quadrupled the events, creating many more than were possible given the growth curve. We now have in the area of 17 events per-weapon including D1, D1A, D2, D3, D1 Team, Senior Team, U19, U19 Team, U16, Y14, Y12, Y10, and all the various wheelchair and veteran events which are too numerous to remember. With entries as astronomically as they are, something needs to be done. .

I am not even remotely involved with the running of tournaments but:

1) US fencing had an unprecedented number of medals in the last Olympics, so our 'model' does not seem to be hurting the elite fencer.

2) Our NACs and SNs are making money (meaning: they are popular), so they are not a bad model, business-wise.

Why, exactly, does "something need to be done"?

[hello?]

Then the USFA went bezerk about 10 years ago

Of course, there are some who think the USFA went bezerk when they proposed this new schedule, two weeks ago?

[hello?]

(although it is the one event where everyone can be together....)....

Yes.

but to do away with a NAC in each age division and cut seasons by half seems way out of line..

Yes.

[pillow]

I agree that Summer Nat's might be too big to deal with and I understand why that event is being restructured (although it is the one event where everyone can be together....)...but to do away with a NAC in each age division and cut seasons by half seems way out of line...

It will give domestic fencers one less shot at qualifying for teams or to even qualify to compete internationally for teams and will protect the status quo...as well as confirm that only the rich or willing to go broke families will have their children make it......I have been talking to lots of people who are aging out of Juniors and they are frustrated that the USFA is talking about taking away a DIV 1; one less domestic chance to make a team..If their season is Dec-April, they aren't so sure they want to do things like postpone college for a year or take a years leave absence to go for it....

I also wonder how much of the ROC business is about money...some of those supporting the new schedules organize ROC's and see a profit.. Its the little divisions(I was a chair for four years)and the little clubs I am worried about....and the coaches who have been in it for the love...who are already on the brink of not making it....i really think private lessons in areas without the ROC's and an infrastructure will be impacted.. If you don't have a competition in 6 months, why would you pay for lessons???..Eric, I am not so worried about Sage; it will actually give her a chance to play music, volleyball, tennis, ski, basketball, act, paint, all the other stuff she loves....but i really do think it will hurt the clubs and take away enthusiasm to have such long breaks....

I also know quite a few families who have adult veteran fencers and children fencers..having a meet with the two of them together is part of the love for these families...under the new plan that will no longer exist.....

I don't know who you are, but it is a pleasure to see that you have immediately grasped the problems with the proposed schedule. Mark Stasinos, one of the USFA Vice-Presidents, has asked people to email him with their opinions of the proposed schedule before the BoD vote in February. Perhaps you would consider sending him your feedback?