When Referees Make Mistakes

[oiuyt]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4583062

-B

[AndrewH]

I was thinking about posting this too.

I do feel bad for the guy, he's making the same split second judgement call that fencing referees make, without the benefit of having the action happen right in front of him. Plus he doesn't have access to replay before making the call, whereas all the fans watching can see it in slo mo from multiple angles.

What I thought was interesting was that he also has a day job. We go on about how we shouldn't hold fencing referees to the standards of professional referees in the NFL, NBA, etc because refereeing isn't their full time job. NCAA football referees certainly are held to the same standards, though- yet they seem to be doing it on the side as well. I wonder what the difference in pay is, if it's possible to be an NCAA referee full time?

(All of that being said, and recognizing that he did make an honest mistake on that call, there's no excuse for his crew's excessive celebration calls in the LSU-Georgia game a couple weeks ago.)

[catwood1]

I'm reasonable certain that NFL referees all have day jobs. Considering they work at most about 16 games per year. I've heard this used as a criticism of NFL refereeing a number of times.

Interesting article considering the parallels to fencing refereeing.

[Dev]

What I thought was interesting was that he also has a day job. We go on about how we shouldn't hold fencing referees to the standards of professional referees in the NFL, NBA, etc because refereeing isn't their full time job. NCAA football referees certainly are held to the same standards, though- yet they seem to be doing it on the side as well. I wonder what the difference in pay is, if it's possible to be an NCAA referee full time?

If I recall correctly, even NFL referees have outside day jobs. Ed Hochuli, for example, is an attorney. According to Wikipedia NFL officials are paid on contract over the course of the season and many or most have their own businesses or other such day jobs. Also, an inadequate referee will supposedly simply have their contract declined for the next season--kind of like not getting hired for a tournament, basically. Termination with no need to show cause.

It makes a sort of sense. At the highest level, sports are entertainment. Referees do not entertain--competitors do. (In fact, it could be said that a too-visible referee can only detract from sports entertainment--hence the directive to staple the flags into your pocket in the NFL divisional playoffs, swallow the whistle in the NBA conference semifinals, and eat your cards in the L8 and later.) Even at the pinnacle of the game, rarely will a referee be considered important enough (to the sport as a whole) to merit full-time employment as such.

(All of that being said, and recognizing that he did make an honest mistake on that call, there's no excuse for his crew's excessive celebration calls in the LSU-Georgia game a couple weeks ago.)

I think you may have just inadvertently summoned Inquartata. I think the NCAA might have been reading his posts when they drafted that ridiculous rule.

[oiuyt]

NFL referees are part time.

Starting salary $29,000. Salary with 20 years of experience $90,000. Plus bonuses for post-season games worked.

-B

[edew]

Does the winning team's owner pay the bonus? Wink wink, nudge nudge.

[oiuyt]

The previous story also indirectly lead me to another including suggestions of how to improve (lacrosse) referees:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?id=4380801

Most of the ideas could translate to fencing.

-B

[catwood1]

One thing I wonder about while reading both of these articles is how many people really *want* to be very good refs. Many of these lacrosse or football refs are either full time referees or at least make a very serious part of their income from it.

Many fencing refs do it because they want to give a little back to the sport, or because they're trying to subsidize the price of traveling to NACs. Most of these referee improvement concepts could be applied to fencing, but how many of our referees want to do that?

How many people would go to a week long camp to try to improve their refereeing? I would. I know a few others that would, but I think we are in the extreme minority.

[SpiralGalaxy]

How many people would go to a week long camp to try to improve their refereeing? I would. I know a few others that would, but I think we are in the extreme minority.

I would, I would!

Especially if it were during the summer and someplace nice, like Colorado Springs. And if it included lots of watching actual fencers and lots of consultation with the more experienced ref cadre. But in a situation where folks can be focused on the refs instead of on the fencers for a bit.

OK, a week might be a bit much, but even a solid weekend would be a big help. So far I've been to 2 referee seminars, both of which started at ~6pm Friday night and finished up ~11 pm -- not my optimal time for learning, or for waking up in time for close of registration the next day.

[AndrewH]

Many fencing refs do it because they want to give a little back to the sport, or because they're trying to subsidize the price of traveling to NACs. Most of these referee improvement concepts could be applied to fencing, but how many of our referees want to do that?

How many people would go to a week long camp to try to improve their refereeing? I would. I know a few others that would, but I think we are in the extreme minority.

I think it all comes down to the pay. For a starting salary of $29,000, I think plenty of people would be willing to spend time attending training camps, watching video, etc. Of course it doesn't matter because the USFA doesn't and won't ever have the money to pay referees like that, nor would anyone expect them to. As an amateur, low level sport (in the US), we can't expect our referees to be highly trained professionals.

[counter riposte]

As an amateur, low level sport (in the US), we can't expect our referees to be highly trained professionals.

We can expect it, in fact, we've had it. But keeping it was the issue.

The closest we have come to having a truly professional referee was Fnet's Mauler.

When he had set his mind to it, he was tooling around the country as a mercinary referee going to every venue possible throughout the northeast sacrificing time, sleep and sanity to get to each and every event possible. His exploits got other mercs like myself to do the same.

The end result was that you had a referee that had the hallmarks of professionalism written all over him. If you hired Mauler, you knew that he would be there, on time, and that the calls were impeccible. Matching Mauler's level of committment at the time was pretty much impossible.

Others have done the same, through use of video review, and the continued desire to watch the sport we love and enjoy. One cannot just like the sport to referee it, one must have a passion for it.

[AndrewH]

When he had set his mind to it, he was tooling around the country as a mercinary referee going to every venue possible throughout the northeast sacrificing time, sleep and sanity to get to each and every event possible.

Of course, I know all about Mauler and his status as the only full time referee. Problem is it was so difficult for him to maintain that it doesn't provide much of an argument for refereeing as a professional job, whether it be full or part time. An NFL referee making $30,000+ has every reason to sacrifice significant amounts of time to further his training. A USFA referee making, at most, $120 a day, which he is unlikely to see for several months, really has no reason BEYOND the aforementioned passion for the sport.

So there's nothing wrong with that, we need plenty of passionate, dedicated people for precisely that reason. The issue I was raising was that of expectations. We as a community often expect our referees to train and perform to the level of the $30,000 NFL referee, while providing no financial incentive to do so. This thread comes to mind as an example of such. Passion for the sport is great, and is necessary to be a good referee. The fact that we have enough passionate people to run a NAC (sometimes just barely) is good, but is it sustainable? As D1 referees retire or move over to coaching, do we have enough young referees ready to move up to that level?

Again, I'm not arguing that the USFA should be paying referees to the level of the NFL. There's no money for that. But we should recognize that the expectations we have for our referees should be in line with what they do get paid.

[prototoast]

The end result was that you had a referee that had the hallmarks of professionalism written all over him. If you hired Mauler, you knew that he would be there, on time, and that the calls were impeccible. Matching Mauler's level of committment at the time was pretty much impossible.

That's pretty misleading. I'll try to say this as nice as possible, the guy's dedication was impressive. His professionalism was superb. The accuracy of his calls left much to be desired.

One of the primary things that sets referees in other sports apart from fencing is the intense competition for the jobs, which, if handled correctly leads to an increase in quality. In fencing, if someone wants to be a referee, he or she has to be amazingly bad to not keep getting hired.

[Inquartata]

I think you may have just inadvertently summoned Inquartata. I think the NCAA might have been reading his posts when they drafted that ridiculous rule.

*Poof!* What the---hey, I was in the shower!

I rue the day that that summoning incantation got into the public domain.

and that the calls were impeccible.

Now, now, let's not go overboard! I mean, I had him as a ref once, and at found at least one of his calls...er...peccable.

[jeff]

I had him as a ref once, and at found at least one of his calls...er...peccable.

Should a ref who makes a mistake say "Peccavi"?

[counter riposte]

Right, wrong, or indifferent, you always knew where Mauler stood on a call.

Even the "Peccavi" calls were given in the same precise pace and tone as every other call in the pool.

[Inquartata]

Granted. It's just not the same thing as "impeccable", that's all.

[Goldgar]

Should a ref who makes a mistake say "Peccavi"?

Only if he has conquered Sindh.

[catwood1]

Now, now, let's not go overboard! I mean, I had him as a ref once, and at found at least one of his calls...er...peccable.

Wait, you disagreed with someone once?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Inquartata]

I only disagree when they are wrong.