Right of way in foil

[Lowell Boston]

In our fencing club numerous heated discussions have been raised concerning Right of Way. Here's the situation:

Fencer A extends his arm and lunges/attacks. Fencer B reacts by lunging forward without engaging fencer A's blade. Fencer A's point is passé, missing the target of the body, yet the side of the blade glides along Fencer B's trunk. Fencer B scores a valid hit.

The argument here is that fencer B's hit is invalidated, because fencer A's hit was passé. Does a passé hit truly invalidate another fencer's hit if the other fencer did not have right of way?

Hope someone has the answer.

Lowell

[swordsen]

No. B's hit is valid and he scores. A needs to aim better.

[Purple Fencer]

Passe does nothing...if there is no light, there is NO touch. In dry fencing, passe ALSO does nothing. Epee and foil are point weponsa....that means the point MUST land valid...sliding a,ong the side of the blade simply means it sucks to be fencer A. If this were sabre, it's be attack for A, because he went first and simple physical contact would complete the circuit, and the box would light.

Attack from A is passe, counter attack from B is valid. Touch B, end of argument.

[ReverseLunge]

You can't argue with the single light.

[Philistine]

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
{snip}If this were sabre, it's be attack for A, because he went first and simple physical contact would complete the circuit, and the box would light.
{snip}

A small correction--in sabre as well, passe touches are not valid:

Rule T.70(b)

Point touches which slip over the valid target, or cuts which merely brush the opponent’s target (passé touches) do not count.

Tough to call, though....

--Philistine

[Peach]

Originally posted by Philistine
A small correction--in sabre as well, passe touches are not valid
--Philistine

The only time I ever see this enforced is with point-in-line, where if your opponent attacks against line and you graze him with the edge instead of hitting him with the point, your opponent gets the touch.

[edew]

Originally posted by Peach
The only time I ever see this enforced is with point-in-line, where if your opponent attacks against line and you graze him with the edge instead of hitting him with the point, your opponent gets the touch.

I agree. In sabre, it's very difficult to claim that a cut is "paase" so that the touch does not occur. If the cut is made and a light is lit, the cut counts modulo right-of-way issues).

Now, the point in line, as Delia mentions, is easily recognizable, and has to hit with the point. Points in line that result in a cut hit do not maintain the right of way (although a good many people use the point-in-line-to-a-stop-cut-to-the-hand move: put the point in line out, let the opponent make the beat. If the opponent is wary, he'll beat and pull his arm back, watching for the parry. At that moment, make a stop cut to the wrist and run away. One light, in time, and no worries, mate.

[Lowell Boston]

Thanks,

Thanks everyone for clearing up this debate.
I suppose I should introduce myself. My name is Lowell Boston. I'm a faculty professor at the University of the Arts in center city Philadelphia where I have established a university wide fencing club for both students, faculty and staff.
Thanks to a generous equipment donation from the University of Penn we now have a permanent collection of foils, mask and jackets. However, we could always use more. If anyone has any old equipment that they would like to donate to our club please contact me at the following address:

archaen59@hotmail.com

Thanks again!

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by Peach
The only time I ever see this enforced is with point-in-line, where if your opponent attacks against line and you graze him with the edge instead of hitting him with the point, your opponent gets the touch.

I actually had put in my original response a note about grazing not counting in dry sabre (let's face it...in electric, it'll fire the light), but I didn't have time to polish it, so I elected not to put it in. Besides, it's damned difficult to determine if it's flat or with the edge, and I don't remember the dry rules enough.

[edew]

Originally posted by Lowell Boston
Thanks,

Thanks everyone for clearing up this debate.
I suppose I should introduce myself. My name is Lowell Boston. I'm a faculty professor at the University of the Arts in center city Philadelphia where I have established a university wide fencing club for both students, faculty and staff.
Thanks to a generous equipment donation from the University of Penn we now have a permanent collection of foils, mask and jackets. However, we could always use more. If anyone has any old equipment that they would like to donate to our club please contact me at the following address:

archaen59@hotmail.com

Thanks again!

Might be worth your while to hire Dave Michanik Charlie Washburn to run a refereeing seminar to explain the various rules and such.

[Peach]

Originally posted by Lowell Boston
Thanks everyone for clearing up this debate.
I suppose I should introduce myself. My name is Lowell Boston. I'm a faculty professor at the University of the Arts in center city Philadelphia where I have established a university wide fencing club for both students, faculty and staff.
Thanks again!

As a quasi-graduate of your institution (it was Philadelphia College of Art then, and I was actually a PAFA student doing the coordinate program), I hope your members will come by & visit the Fencing Academy of Philadelphia at 35th & Lancaster (215-382-0293) near Penn & Drexel. Lots of fencing at all levels and ages, well worth an occasional floor fee. The Temple University women often come by and fence for a little extra practice. Let us know if there's anything we can do to help.

When are your practices and will you be permitting non-members to visit any time?

--Delia Turner

[Lowell Boston]

Delia,

Thanks for the invite. I just came back from a workshop this evening. Our club meets twice a week:
Tuesday - 6:30 - 8:00 and Thursday - 5:30 - 7:00 in the Greshman Y third floor auditorium (corner of Pine and Broad St.). Actually the students and I were just talking about the Fencing Academy, and were wondering if they held open bouts. We're
about to organize our second classical fencing tournament. Anyway, non-members are always welcomed. I have six years experince, sans certification by any organization, so any additional instructions wound be helpful to the group.

Thanks,

Lowell

[Peach]

Thanks for the information! I'll pass it around. Are you mostly foil or do you have other weapons as well? I'm tied up on Tuesdays with running errands with my elderly mother, and Thursdays I usually go out with my husband, but I'm sure there are other members at my club who might want to come visit.

There is open bouting most evenings at FAP, though they do charge a floor fee (not sure how much) & get you to sign a release if you drop in for an evening's workout. Usually, the kids hold court (ranging from elementary to high school) from about 4:00 until 7:00, and then the adults take over. Although the adult class goes from about 7:00 to about 8:00, it only takes over part of the floor, and the remaining strips are available for bouting. (There are lots of strips, and a weight room). Also there are a number of coaches giving lessons concurrently. The last person drifts out by about 10:00. We welcome visitors. (It's a business, and the head coach makes a full-time living at it, so we're not interested in turning people away!).

I'm a sabre fencer, so I am there Mondays and Wednesdays, which are stronger in sabre, though there are also usually a few foilists and epeeists there on those nights. Tuesdays and Thursdays seem to be more strongly weighted to foil and epee. I believe they have fencing on Friday evenings as well, and Saturday afternoons after all the youth & junior classes are over there is some adult bouting. Often on Sundays there are tournaments.

[attila]

Hey rev lunge.

I guess you have never been reffed by George "I dunno" Mura. He screwed me outta a single light touch a circuit event. I t can happen......

[Boo Boo]

Had a great example of foil right-of-way refereeing last night.

Fencer A lunges with a direct progressive hit to chest, Fencer B runs backwards straightening his arm. Fencer B is doing a counterattack and not a line (his arm is fully straight before Fencer A's hit lands, but he was running pack and started extending his arm way after Fencer A started extending). Fencer A hits off target, Fencer B's hit is good.

The referee called "Attack Fencer B". His explaination - "an attack is a straight arm, Fencer B had a straight arm" (he had no understanding of an extending arm, point moving towards the target etc...). The hit should go to whoever had a straight arm first....

The scarey thing is that the ref has been fencing foil for about 5 years (admitedly non-electric foil), but he has no idea of right-of-way...

Boo
(okay, its almost as funny as the passe discussion above...)

[edew]

Originally posted by Boo Boo
Had a great example of foil right-of-way refereeing last night.

Fencer A lunges with a direct progressive hit to chest, Fencer B runs backwards straightening his arm. Fencer B is doing a counterattack and not a line (his arm is fully straight before Fencer A's hit lands, but he was running pack and started extending his arm way after Fencer A started extending). Fencer A hits off target, Fencer B's hit is good.

The referee called "Attack Fencer B". His explaination - "an attack is a straight arm, Fencer B had a straight arm" (he had no understanding of an extending arm, point moving towards the target etc...). The hit should go to whoever had a straight arm first....

The scarey thing is that the ref has been fencing foil for about 5 years (admitedly non-electric foil), but he has no idea of right-of-way...

Boo
(okay, its almost as funny as the passe discussion above...)

For clueless dolts like this referee, you calmly take him outside after practice, preferably to a back alley, and pummel him to death. Leave a note for the police saying that he doesn't understand jack. They'll report it as an undetermined death. We don't need those kinds in fencing :-)

[Boo Boo]

Very tempting.... I did explain things calmly to him afterwards, but from the glazed expression ("I am not actually listening to you") and his non-commital/disinterested replies I can only assume he is going to take no nottice of what I said because he knows he is right.... :-(

I know his coach is of the "old-fashoined" school (i.e. flicks aren't attacks because the point is not always pointing at the target), but I am sure that he didn't teach him that your arm has to be straight and fully extended to be an attack....

Boo
(Doesn't like bashing her head against brick walls...)

[edew]

Originally posted by Boo Boo
[...]

Boo
(Doesn't like bashing her head against brick walls...)

See, that's your problem. With obstinate blokes like him, it's more effective to bash his head against the brick wall.

Enjoy the experience.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by edew
See, that's your problem. With obstinate blokes like him, it's more effective to bash his head against the brick wall.

Enjoy the experience.

And the wall will ALWAYS have right of way.

Hope he has an FIE skull!

[JEC]

See, that's your problem. With obstinate blokes like him, it's more effective to bash his head against the brick wall

Unfortunately, we had one of them in Greenville at Y10MF pools. Ce la vie...