Right of way in foil

[darius]

For chrissakes, D'art...lose the holier-than-thou stuff once and for all.

Epee is no more "real" than foil; if you're participating in electric fencing, it's a sport. There's no reason that the arbitrary 1/25 of a second limit for double touches simulates real combat -- if that's what you're after, find a box you can increase the lockout time to about a half-second, to truly see if you're "hitting without being hit."

In foil, the right-of-way rules only come into effect in two-light situations. One could make a case that forcing a competitor to properly defend oneself provides just as realistic of a situation -- after all, what good is a little wrist tag when your opponent is fleching headlong at you? You may have inflicted a 750g scratch, but what is that going to do, "if they were sharp?"

Someday, I hope you'll abandon the BS mousquetaire act, and realize that there's no "truth" in fencing, but instead a never-ending series of physical and mental puzzles to be solved -- the light is a piece of that puzzle, but only one -- there are 4 or 14 more in every encounter. Despite some grounding in reality, the entire forum of a fencing bout is artificial; if you want to play Porthos, go out in the street with some rapiers and do that, grappling, chandeliers, and all!

To make base accusations that the flicksters among us care only about a light merely illustrates a lack of understanding of the modern sport on your part. That's your prerogative, of course, but in that case you're not qualified to make judgements of its practicioners.

True classical fencers don't care about modern fencing -- they do their own thing, and enjoy it.

darius

[D'Artagnan1673]

You are missing me, Darius.

I am talking about the validity of the touch. There is no doubt in my mind that I would rather be the one hitting the wrist than the one whose fleching into the mask. In that situation we know that the hit to the wrist won. Its how we score. If I was interested in all the wounding stuff, I'd be fencing SCA. The fact of the matter is that in epee, we know for a fact (truth) who got the touch. In foil, too much subjections.

[darius]

The fact of the matter is that in epee, we know for a fact (truth) who got the touch. In foil, too much subjections.

Epee is subject to similar decisions, as mentioned above.

One could say the same thing about hockey -- seems pretty easy, right? Put the puck in the net. Truth.

Now was that puck hit with a high stick? No good. Was it kicked into the goal? No good. How about deflected off the scorer's hand? Also no good.

These decisions all rely on a human's judgement and competence, but they aren't subjective. Foil right-of-way terminology has funny French names, but they're specifically defined actions -- (forward pass versus fumble? Any Raiders fans out there?) -- and if a fencer makes the correct action and hits, they get the touch. Truth.

By having to watch more things, a foil ref has more room for error. If that's not your thing, no problemo, but all sports are based on a human setting an arbitrary limit.

darius

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
I should hope that there will be no critisicms of my observations since they are made from fact and not opinion.

You cannot POSSIBLY think that this paragraph is unoppinionated and fact based. After all, the first sentence sure SOUNDS like an oppinion: "The proper application of the foil will give the fencer a solid foundation of true sword fighting principals [sic] which will make the fencer far more effective in the real point weapon of fencing, the epee."

Therefore, it is my conclusion that if all you want out of fencing is to make a light go off, attack improperly to your hearts desire. If you wish for some truth in fencing, then use the foil as a means of learning the proper technique of fencing and then move on to the epee.

so, your argument seems to be that the only "proper" attacks in foil are those which are useful in epee. First of all, I am always quick to point out that if you are training somebody to fence epee, you should train them IN epee. Foil encourages bad habbits in prospective epeeists. Secondly, given how useful I find flicking to be in epee, it would seem that by your argument it IS a "proper" attack.

-m

[D'Artagnan1673]

I will still argue that fencing foil gives a solid fencing foundation to work into epee. There is no argument that the foil coupe' is useless and indeed counter prodcutive in epee; this could in fact be said about many strokes with the foil.

I believe that one of the foundations of fencing any of the three weapons is control over one's actions. I have seen beginning fencers who have started with the foil and those who have started with the epee. I have noted the the foilists are not necessarily better, but they have control over their actions and are not wild. I have further noted that the epeeists tend to be very violent and dangerous.

What I am arguing is that the beginning foilist sees a bout as a conversation between the two blades. Just as in society a conversation has certain elements, so does the engagement. If one person attacks, then the other responds with a parry. Once the parry has satisfied our society's need to defend oneself, a counter attack or riposte may be employed. Epee, as much as I love the weapon, does not in itself teach the proper "conversation" of the blades. Beginners tend to jab and poke quite a bit. Sure, the instructor can fix that by careful teaching of the student, but that takes time. To quote Nick Evangelista, "why would someone be in a hurry to be bad?"

Now to switch subjects. I got a little hot because I read these posts and everyone was getting on to Tim because of his feelings for the foil. I felt that someone should defend his position. As far as I am concerned, fence foil any way you care to. This is a free world and I am not affected because I simply do not fence the weapon. If I teach any foil, I will teach the old fashioned way for the sake of control. My strength is the epee so I will only do the things which I believe will aid in someone's progression to being a better epeeist.

[edew]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
I will still argue that fencing foil gives a solid fencing foundation to work into epee. There is no argument that the foil coupe' is useless and indeed counter prodcutive in epee; this could in fact be said about many strokes with the foil.

I believe that one of the foundations of fencing any of the three weapons is control over one's actions. I have seen beginning fencers who have started with the foil and those who have started with the epee. I have noted the the foilists are not necessarily better, but they have control over their actions and are not wild. I have further noted that the epeeists tend to be very violent and dangerous.

What I am arguing is that the beginning foilist sees a bout as a conversation between the two blades. Just as in society a conversation has certain elements, so does the engagement. If one person attacks, then the other responds with a parry. Once the parry has satisfied our society's need to defend oneself, a counter attack or riposte may be employed. Epee, as much as I love the weapon, does not in itself teach the proper "conversation" of the blades. Beginners tend to jab and poke quite a bit. Sure, the instructor can fix that by careful teaching of the student, but that takes time. To quote Nick Evangelista, "why would someone be in a hurry to be bad?"

Now to switch subjects. I got a little hot because I read these posts and everyone was getting on to Tim because of his feelings for the foil. I felt that someone should defend his position. As far as I am concerned, fence foil any way you care to. This is a free world and I am not affected because I simply do not fence the weapon. If I teach any foil, I will teach the old fashioned way for the sake of control. My strength is the epee so I will only do the things which I believe will aid in someone's progression to being a better epeeist.

Learning foil first to learn epee is as wise as learning german first to learn french. A better analogy might be Swahili before learning Finnish.

Just because people are piling on to Tim doesn't mean he heeds defending. Maybe you can be an advocate for Andrew Fastow or Dennis Koslowski, while you're at it. Tim can defend himself pretty well (he was in Vietnam, killed more people than we invite into our homes, combined). Still, if someone says the earth is flat, I don't think there's any value or point to defending such a statement.

Lastly, quoting Evangelista, with regards to anything, but especially to fencing, is, well, indefensible.

[darius]

There is no argument that the foil coupe' is useless and indeed counter prodcutive in epee;

I sincerely hope you're experimenting with psychoactive substances to so boldly proclaim a fallacy as fact. High-level epeeists, especially women, use coupes -- particularly in conjunction with fleches. Nationals are in Texas this summer; go watch, and let us know.

We've all been over the "foil first" conversation before, though. Good fencing comes from good fundamentals, and those can be taught in any weapon -- beginners tend to poke and jab in foil, too.

darius

[D'Artagnan1673]

A foil coupe' against myself has generally given one of the two outcomes.

1. A clean touch under the bell for myself.

2. No touch for either as I am on my guard for an aggressive action.

Any other fallacies while we are on this subject?

[darius]

In your general experience, that may well be what has happened. However, your statistics may be skewed by who you fence -- and their lack of ability to execute that action well. Of those people you've handily dispatched, how many are on the points list? How many have a C-or-above rating?

Now, you could say, for example, "In my experience, a coupe doesn't work in epee." Etcetera. But to boldly proclaim that "there is no argument" that such an action is counterproductive, well...that's just silly, unless you've fenced at the high National level and seen that action be defeated consistently.

I've never fenced high-level epee, and don't care to. However, I can tell you that the coupe works extremely well in epee. Unless the folks I see doing it at practice every other day are somehow wrong; in that case, it is our duty to tell our national coaches about this new theoretical development!! They must alter their training methods immediately!!

All sarcasm aside, perhaps you should try it! Feint a wrist touch to the outside wrist, then coupe with a fleche to hit the upper arm. If you miss the upper arm, continue to the body or drop to the leg.

darius

[edew]

Or, get the 2002 tapes, and see some coupe hits in epee. Especially in women's epee. Most are flick-like hits to the upper (or lower) arm, but Hyun Hee's were very good beat-coupe, finish to the low line if parried. With the speed that she executed with, D'Art would just be standing there like a statue by the time she has walked back to the on guard line.

[D'Artagnan1673]

You are right. I was thinking "in my experience" but is was not I wrote.

The strongeset epeeist I've ever fenced is Daniel Trapani. He's thirteen and placed number 3 in 12 and Under Epee this summer. He beat me 8-10 but I could tell he was getting tired near the end (when I made my comeback).

I'll give the move a try.

Oh come on Edew! I'm not saying I'd stand a chance in Hell against someone that level, but I don't think I'd be caught as flat footed as you think I would. I would be hit, but with the second intention as I retreated desperately flailling my weapon around

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
A foil coupe' against myself has generally given one of the two outcomes.

1. A clean touch under the bell for myself.

2. No touch for either as I am on my guard for an aggressive action.

Any other fallacies while we are on this subject?

I assume in this context you are using coupe to mean flick. it should be noted that these are NOT synonymous. That having been said, I hope I get to fence you at some point. you will find that not only do I frequently hit flicks to the arm, but I use them as set ups for other actions. In a given day of fencing, I would say that half of my touches are flick related (that is to say that they are flicks or complex actions working off of flicks). The flick CERTAINLY has usefulness in epee.

In addition, I must second Darius and EDew about starting with epee over foil. Starting with epee instead of foil has NOTHING to do with beginners jabbing. In addition, why would I want a beginner to learn the "conversation" necessary for foil (which, btw, I do know, as it really is not that complex)? Since, as you point out, counter attacks are so useful in epee, why would I want to drill into a beginner at epee that he should always be looking to pary and that ripostes should be to the body? Won't these tendencies have to be fixed later? wouldn't it be more productive to teach him the proper epee reactions straight off?

-m

[DonCatSTL]

oh nooo, the dreaded flick debate!!!!!

tim, you make a good point...I'll keep that in mind next time I'm fencing with my m14


there are many aspects to fencing - martial, sport, science, gamesmanship...and so on ... the flick comes with the game ...


the weapon has changed (some would say mutated) to where it allows the flick, and a since a PROPERLY executed flick occurs within a single tempo, it has the ability and the threat to land on target and should be acknowledged....


you can do, basically, one of three things (which have been pointed out by others in previous posts) -

step in, take the whack and get the point
parry with distance, attack in time
retreat enough to allow attack in proper distance, parry and riposte (compound or simple)

or, I suppose, one could take up bayonet fencing

OR, there's always epee ....

[edew]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
You are right. I was thinking "in my experience" but is was not I wrote.

The strongeset epeeist I've ever fenced is Daniel Trapani. He's thirteen and placed number 3 in 12 and Under Epee this summer. He beat me 8-10 but I could tell he was getting tired near the end (when I made my comeback).

I'll give the move a try.

Oh come on Edew! I'm not saying I'd stand a chance in Hell against someone that level, but I don't think I'd be caught as flat footed as you think I would. I would be hit, but with the second intention as I retreated desperately flailling my weapon around

If Hyun Hee can get Duplitzer to stand there like a hooker waiting for a bus, I'm sure you will definitely not fare much better.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Mike,

Of course the counterattack is vital to a well rounded fencer. I will give up the argument on starting with foil. I am too busy and stressed to think well enough to convice anyone without being in person.

Back to the coupe'. I actually was not referring to the flick coupe'. I was literally saying that a foil coupe' (refer to previous post) is not smart in epee. I am not talking about the sudden flick but completely exposing your wrist.

I understand what you mean about the coupe'/flick being used to set up another move. That is of course second intention and any smart epeeist will always have a secondary target. I would like to fence you one day. Perhaps if you come to the summer nationals in Austin we might be able to have a friendly bout.

[edew]

Only goes to show that you've only scratched the very top of fencing.

I've used a very foil-like move (successfully) in epee: attack, pull the arm back, run at them, and then hit with a late extension. Can be used successfully (about once a bout, at best) when the situation is properly set up right.

Fencing is mental. If you get your opponent properly set-up, you can sell him on anything. Foil coupes, pull back the arm, whatever.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Either I've just scratched the surface or I'm not bad at avoiding traps (at my level mind you!).

I move I like is to give the body language that I am about to fall over and then fleche. That may work once a night as well.

[haggis]

Have watched Timea Nagy taking lessons and the coupe is taught as a reaction when opponent attempts to collect the blade and the hit is to wrist. The form of the coupe was exactly the same as for foil. Since Nagy won Olympic epee gold in Sydney (one more Olympic gold than all of us put together, I'm fairly sure) I'm prepared to accept that the coupe has a place in epee. Of course, if anyone can provide a better example of why the coupe is rubbish for epee please feel free to share it.

Edew:

"Duplitzer... like a hooker waiting for a bus".

You better hope she never hears of your simile. Even in translation, I don't think she'd laugh (although I did )

[Flo Reichling]

Hm, I was just checking out this board for the first time in the last 2 years. What is the point to argue about whether to use flicks in epee or not?

There are many fencers out there that use flicks in epee. Some men even do parry six shoulder. And it works for some. For some it doesn't, because they are not fast enough or for whatever reason.

Thus, using the flick, whether it is in foil or epee, is rather a matter of skill, but nothing else. Who has the skill, will choose to use it.

And by the way, the people not supporting flicks in foil (not considering it as an attack, as some people on here suggest) are often the people that cannot flick themselves and don't even know how to defend it. These are the people that feel helpless and get a little to heated about the validity of the flick (and I don't blame them).

So what's the point about having the discussion here? Some people use it, some don't. I think the tactics should not be questioned, as the flick gives every fencer a wider range of options what to do in a bout, given that he doesn't lack the ability to go straight (as some people actually do).

[edew]

Originally posted by Flo Reichling
Hm, I was just checking out this board for the first time in the last 2 years. What is the point to argue about whether to use flicks in epee or not?

There are many fencers out there that use flicks in epee. Some men even do parry six shoulder. And it works for some. For some it doesn't, because they are not fast enough or for whatever reas