Myths? [Epee]

[FritoBandito]

Two things that I have been told which I dont know to be true are:

1- A beat is really just a distraction from which to do something else. By that I mean it just buys you a split second while they are off target.

2- Attacks to the hand are also just distractions and I should be focussing on hitting to the body. To use them I should just attempt a hand/arm hit on the way too the body but the body is always the target.

[Purple Fencer]

Two things that I have been told which I dont know to be true are:

1- A beat is really just a distraction from which to do something else. By that I mean it just buys you a split second while they are off target.

Not ENTIRELY true, as I've seen it used in just that fashion.

2- Attacks to the hand are also just distractions and I should be focussing on hitting to the body. To use them I should just attempt a hand/arm hit on the way too the body but the body is always the target.

As anywhere is valid target, this is definitely a myth...a good wrist pick is just as effective as a deep-body shot....same for a foot shot.

[whtouche]

As anywhere is valid target, this is definitely a myth...a good wrist pick is just as effective as a deep-body shot....same for a foot shot.

Not sure what you mean by "just as good as" - if what you mean is "a good wrist pick is a significantly lower percentage move" then I'd say yeah they're about just as effective.

[epeelion]

Foot and wrist are nowhere near as good as a good body shot. something like 70% or more of touches in epee are to the upper arm and body. The are, however, safer in many situation, as you expose yourself less, and so are often an ideal preparation, or action of of which to make a remise.

A beat is really just a distraction from which to do something else. By that I mean it just buys you a split second while they are off target.

You could say the same about a parry, except it's for longer than a second.
You can't score with a beat or a parry, so of course it's a "distraction" for something else.

[Gav]

Two things that I have been told which I dont know to be true are:

1- A beat is really just a distraction from which to do something else. By that I mean it just buys you a split second while they are off target.

No, if you can score with a beat attack then do a beat attack. If anything the fact you are not committing after your beat makes you very predictable.

2- Attacks to the hand are also just distractions and I should be focussing on hitting to the body. To use them I should just attempt a hand/arm hit on the way too the body but the body is always the target.

The high % shots are in the up quarter of the your opponents body above their epee: upper arm and shoulder. Most people score here. However that's not to say that you should ignore the rest of your potential game.

And no, the body isn't always the target. The correct answer is "it depends".

Again if you can hit on the hand - why not?

[TBean]

Two things that I have been told which I dont know to be true are:

1- A beat is really just a distraction from which to do something else. By that I mean it just buys you a split second while they are off target.

2- Attacks to the hand are also just distractions and I should be focussing on hitting to the body. To use them I should just attempt a hand/arm hit on the way too the body but the body is always the target.

I don't think these are myths, but they are not absolute truths either. For both of your statements - "It depends" - is the correct answer.

Hand and foot touches are important in epee, but they are also much harder to hit. Should you know how to have your point in the zone of the hand so your opponent might impale themselves - yes. Should you know how to put your point in for a wrist shot - yes. Should you know the distance and time for low-line attacks - yes.

Given all of that, these are still not going to be the majority of your touches in a bout. For me, at least, the primary target is still the body - it is still the easiest thing to hit. I will use a hand feint to the hand to draw a reaction - parry or get them to withdraw the hand - to make a second deeper action to the shoulder or chest. Sometimes I make a direct action to the hand - it depends on my opponent.

[Allen Evans]

Beats may be used to:

1. Steal time (facilitating an attack)
2. Open a line (esp. true in epee).
3. Distract or freeze an opponent.
4. Interrupt an opponent's actions.
5. Gain information.
6 Distract, confuse, or annoy the opponent

So. You've got one out of 6 on the beat, but probably not the most important one.

Attacks to the hand are often "statistical shots". They have a weak percentage of actually scoring (unless the difference in skill between the two opponent's is pretty large). Never-the-less, they still demand full attention and commitment, like any other "feint". If you're making an attack to the hand with a lack of commitment, your opponent never has a need to defend his or her hand, and will bury you in interrupting actions, including counters to your own hand and arm.

Hasn't your coach explained all of this to you?

[Insipiens]

Beats may be used to:

...
Hasn't your coach explained all of this to you?

I think given the number of questions asked I am almost inclined to ask "does he have a coach"?

[theLuz]

epee is not a myth. I've seen it in person.

[BenTheEMOP]

Snark aside, good on Frito for asking questions.

His coach may not be explaining things to him or giving him digestible pieces. If you told me all six of those things at once I might not retain them.

Here' my epee myth question, I've heard recently that lunges should not be a priority for epee fencers and that the action should happen much closer. Thoughts?

[Allen Evans]

Yes. True. Good on Frito for asking questions.

I'd say that "lunges should not be a priority" is a busted myth. Watch some of the excellant video out there that's available, and I think you'll see that lunges (even long lunges) have a place in taking the attack to the opponent.

[lguillemin]

Here' my epee myth question, I've heard recently that lunges should not be a priority for epee fencers and that the action should happen much closer. Thoughts?

I wouldn't say that the action should happen much closer, but fencing at a short distance has it's advantages.

If you are a strong technical fencer and you can disengage anything thrown at you, it would be very beneficial to work on your long game which requires lunges as your main attack.

I won't have enough room in this post to explain how beneficial fencing at a short distance actually is... I would highly recommend reading Johan Harmengberg's Epee 2.0 to fully grasp why short distance is beneficial. I'll touch on a two key points:

1. Limits the complexity of the attacks.
If you are within extension range and your opponent initiates a compound attack, you will hit them with a simple counter-attack. They do not have the time nor the space to do a compound attack. They are forced to either commit to an attack, or parry/counter your attack. It makes the fencing more predictable.
2. Makes your opponent uncomfortable
If you train at a short distance you will become accustomed to the feeling of being uncomfortably close. Analyze how you feel when your opponent is too close and that is the feeling you can create for your opponent. It usually creates the opportunity for your opponent to make mistakes (like attacking into your strengths)


Still though having a good lunge is very very important.

[shlepzig]

Allen has touched on things that may be achieved with a beat. Others have talked about the general preference of hitting arm, body, hand, toe etc. fencing Short, or fencing long. All of which is good advice.

There is no specific answer to your question, it all lies in the realm of "it depends".

In general upper-arm and body shots comprise a higher percentage of the shots in epee. However, each touch happens individually, and what is possible changes with each pairing of fencers and each touch within that pairing. As you train, you are going to learn a lot of solutions to different problems both tactical and technical. You are going to develop the techniques you do best into your Areas of Excellence (as stated in Epee 2.0), you are going to need develop your tactics to put you into position to use them in general. If you find they aren't working during a particular touch, you will want to dig into your repetoire of other actions to find an appropriate solution.

There are fencers I can't get close to the body on, but can hit the hand reliably. There are fencers that it is suicide to go for an arm shot, but can be hit deeper in the body. Some people fence better than I do close, some fencer better than I do at longer distance.

What I took away from Epee 2.0 was that you need to be aware of what you do well, and what your opponent does well; what you don't do well and what your opponent does not do well. From there, you construct what conditions you want to create in the bout. To enable you to do what you do well, and take away what your opponent does well.

If your opponent is much faster than you and better at fencing close than you are, opening the distance is probably a good idea. You want to take the conditions away that play to your opponents strength and create the conditions that fit your own strengths.

In practice I was recently fencing an opponent that was less experienced than I, but he was nearly a foot taller and a body like pipe cleaners. I thought it would be an easy bout, but I found he would plink me from above on my short attacks. Longer attacks would miss his arm and body, his long arms would noodle around parries or binds and eventually find a target. Conventional thinking was resulting in a very low percentage of single lights. I looked at what he was doing and I found I could hit his toe at will, I did so for the next 13 touches to end the bout.

-Shlep'

[keith]

Here' my epee myth question, I've heard recently that lunges should not be a priority for epee fencers and that the action should happen much closer. Thoughts?

Fashions change (for any weapon). If you can dig up some older footage you will see epee at longer distance. At least one of the arguments I have heard for the compression of distance is that in reduces the impact of the remise/redouble.

As Allen points out that doesn't negate the usefulness of the lunge. After all if an opponent wants to get into a closer distance the lunge becomes useful if they are to aggressive in closing the distance (the remise and redouble again).

[misha]

In epee I would be very careful about lunging against an opponent taller than you.

[Allen Evans]

In epee I would be very careful about lunging against an opponent taller than you.

What if you're past his tip?

What if you have his blade?

What if his blade is waving up in the air because you've faked him out?

What if he's in the process of losing his balance?

Unless, of course, by "careful" you mean: don't lunge unless you've created or are explointing a good lunge opportunity.

In which case, I agree with you.

[TBean]

In epee I would be very careful about lunging against an opponent taller than you.

I would be careful lunging against an opponent shorter than myself - in any number of circumstances - as well.

Lunging without a plan rarely nets you a great result.

[FritoBandito]

OK so in general, these hits which actually go to the hand should still be part of my arsenal and not just distractions. Also they make good compound attacks etc (as per that list of 6)

What I took away from Epee 2.0 was that you need to be aware of what you do well, and what your opponent does well; what you don't do well and what your opponent does not do well. From there, you construct what conditions you want to create in the bout. To enable you to do what you do well, and take away what your opponent does well.

Hmmm I think im going to attempt to make a list of things im good at then things im less good at. I know them... I'm not just bumbling around out there but I dont think and analyze a bout as much as you guys seem to.
I find summaries from books, like this, are almost as good as reading the book.

does he have a coach?

Haha yes I have a coach but hes really a coach for a different weapon. He teaches the fundamentals well i guess.. I know my limits very well. From how far I can hit (hand,arm,body) accounting for differences in speed and likely hood of success. I would say that is the main thing he teaches us. My beef is that nothing has any context. ie/ I know I can lunge to my opponents hand while we are moving so fast with a 30% chance of success against people at my club. However I dont know when I should actually be attempting to do any specific action, and why certain ones fail.

[keith]

OK so in general, these hits which actually go to the hand should still be part of my arsenal and not just distractions. Also they make good compound attacks etc (as per that list of 6)

Bear in mind that in epee first intention actions to low probability targets (hand, foot) serve two purposes. The obvious one of getting a touch but also as a preparation for the next action. Good old fashioned epee attacks would be first hit hand, second hit wrist, third hit upper arm, forth hit torso - so if you draw a line to your final target you are aiming to put your point on any other bits of your opponent which happen to be on that line. Of course these actions to hand/foot will often draw counter attacks which give you a whole other tactical realm to explore.

[shlepzig]

Hmmm I think im going to attempt to make a list of things im good at then things im less good at. I know them... I'm not just bumbling around out there but I dont think and analyze a bout as much as you guys seem to.

You don't need to agonize about each touch or execute scholoarly deabate regarding each action. But taking notes helps. Kogler (One Touch at a Time) strongly reccomends the keeping of a fencing notebook to track what your fencing is doing over time. His reccomendations are pretty exhaustive.

In short though, I suggest that you need to at least get into the habit of making mental notes of the basics.

1. What just happened (or has happened in the course of the bout).

2. What is working for you.

3. What is working for the other guy.

4. What is not working for you.

5. What opportunites you see against the other fencer.

During practice this is really useful. Try a couple of exercises in practice.

Spend a practice session working just one specific action, like a 6-Opposition to fine tune it, and get a sense of the conditions you need to create to use it.

Spend a practice session changing your goals for the bout, score all touches as attacks, or in defense, from a particular distance, in opposition, or without any blade contact at all.

You will soon get a good idea what your "Areas of Excellence" (Epee 2.0, Johan Harmenberg )are, and what you need to do to create your opportunities to use them.

Growing as a fencer, you will need to engage in some introspection regarding your skills.
-Shlep