Outsourcing of Airline Maintenance

[erik_blank]

Seems that the airlines have been on a cost cutting spree, and as part of this they have been out sourcing their major maintenance to companies in Central America and China.

The link to the story below has some interesting quotes about the relative safety of these shops, and how often/if they are inspected by the FAA.

After hearing this piece, I have to say I'm not sure I am feeling all that good about the state of our nations aircraft, especially with what i remember about various whistle blowers saying that he inspectors that ARE in the U.S. are often in collusion with the major airlines to ignore maintenance record keeping issues...

To Cut Costs Airlines Send Repairs Abroad

[I_luv_saber]

I nearly made a thread about this yesterday...


Yeah - not so sure I feel so warm and fuzzy inside about it, either. Then again, there are already plenty of foreign aircraft flying around and over the States, so maybe it's all just in my head...

[Fiat Slug]

I think I first heard about airlines outsourcing maintenance work to Latin America about 5 years ago. Even back then these allegations were flying (no pun intended). I know some accidents have been attributed to outsourced maintenance but I haven't seen if there's a statistical correlation. For example, I'd be curious to see if planes whose maintenance are outsourced have a higher or lower crash rate.

[Gav]

Seems that the airlines have been on a cost cutting spree, and as part of this they have been out sourcing their major maintenance to companies in Central America and China.

The link to the story below has some interesting quotes about the relative safety of these shops, and how often/if they are inspected by the FAA.

After hearing this piece, I have to say I'm not sure I am feeling all that good about the state of our nations aircraft, especially with what i remember about various whistle blowers saying that he inspectors that ARE in the U.S. are often in collusion with the major airlines to ignore maintenance record keeping issues...

To Cut Costs Airlines Send Repairs Abroad

Surely the important point to be made here is quality control?

If an airline can send it's planes for maintenance to China or South America and get them serviced cheaper - and as well - then why not?

[I_luv_saber]

I think the worry is will it be done just as well as if it were done here? Are we able to keep as close an eye on things? What sort of regulations are in place for this sort of thing? Will we be able to easily spot if they are not doing as quality a job as would be done here?

These are a few things that passed through my head - but as I said, there are already lots of foreign aircraft flying around, so perhaps these fears are unfounded. Would be interesting to know what regulations these airlines would have to comply to, as well as what regulations foreign aircraft must comply to...

[Hauptman]

Surely the important point to be made here is quality control?

If an airline can send it's planes for maintenance to China or South America and get them serviced cheaper - and as well - then why not?

In theory this is true, but in practice it rarely holds up.

Outsourcing literally passes responsibility out of the organization, and so accountability (quality) lags. It doesn't have to be this way, but it generally ends up that way.

[Bayou Bum]

I think the worry is will it be done just as well as if it were done here? Are we able to keep as close an eye on things? What sort of regulations are in place for this sort of thing? Will we be able to easily spot if they are not doing as quality a job as would be done here?

These are a few things that passed through my head - but as I said, there are already lots of foreign aircraft flying around, so perhaps these fears are unfounded. Would be interesting to know what regulations these airlines would have to comply to, as well as what regulations foreign aircraft must comply to...

Would you have the same concerns if the outsourcing were to Germany?

[Slacker]

Exactly.
I think we need to revisit our work ethic. I have mixed feelings about the subject. Having grown up in a family who's worked for Lockheed, Boeing, Hughes, etc, I know how much we rely on having work to do. But if the work is not done right, or takes too long, which is often the case, maybe we need to send the work to someone who can get it done in a timely manner.

[I_luv_saber]

Would you have the same concerns if the outsourcing were to Germany?

Yes. Probably not as concerned, but I still would have the same concerns. I still don't know how much they are being supervised or what regulations they must conform to. Basically, what system is in place to ensure quality is not sacrificed? I'm not saying that none exist - just that I don't know what they are, hence some amount of concern.

But again, I also note that there are already foreign aircraft flying about anyway. It would be interesting to see a comparison of what a foreign carrier must conform to and what a domestic carrier must conform to, in terms of regulations and safety...

[Inquartata]

I think this rises from a distinctly American conceit that only we can do anything properly, and thus having anything done by "foreigners" can only be cause for concern...

[Hauptman]

I think this rises from a distinctly American conceit that only we can do anything properly, and thus having anything done by "foreigners" can only be cause for concern...

Do you really think it's that universal? We seem to be in love with Japanese and German technology. Of course, "Made in China" or "Made in Mexico" get a different response.

[Inquartata]

Depends on the application, I suppose. I mean, I'm not sure how it's worse qualitatively for a tech support call to be answered by a guy in India than by a guy in San Jose. Or even a guy in Germany or Japan.

Meanwhile, all those Chinese airliners keep on dropping out of the sky. I am terrified!

[I_luv_saber]

I think this rises from a distinctly American conceit that only we can do anything properly, and thus having anything done by "foreigners" can only be cause for concern...

I think that's part of the reason, but not the only reason. It's not that I think all foreign countries would do an inferior job - it's that I don't know what is in place ensure that they DO do a quality job. AFAIK there are regulations for airlines here - directives when something must be fixed on an aircraft, inspections, etc. I just want to know if these will apply to foreign repair companies, and if so, if they will be supervised in the same way they would be here.

So, while I think you have A point, and that plays a part, it's more supervision vs. less supervision rather than ability vs. less ability.
(Also, note that I'm not saying that supervision doesn't exist, just that I'd like to know what's there and how it's carried out.)

[Inquartata]

AFAIK there are regulations for airlines here - directives when something must be fixed on an aircraft, inspections, etc.

Yes, and apparently airlines ignore or circumvent them rather frequently. No doubt the fines they pay when they are discovered doing this are less than what they would have spent complying...

And as a former military man, I can but smile at the notion that inspections guarantee performance.

[jessicasimpson]

Yes, and apparently airlines ignore or circumvent them rather frequently. No doubt the fines they pay when they are discovered doing this are less than what they would have spent complying...

And as a former military man, I can but smile at the notion that inspections guarantee performance.

So should we just lift all the regulations, and let the free market self correct?

[erik_blank]

Yes, and apparently airlines ignore or circumvent them rather frequently. No doubt the fines they pay when they are discovered doing this are less than what they would have spent complying...

And as a former military man, I can but smile at the notion that inspections guarantee performance.

One thing that I want to point out about the linked story is that a number of these off shore facitlities have NEVER been inspected by the FAA. This, to me, makes the following of proper inspection and repair procedures even lees likely to be done than in places that have moderate chance of being discovered.

[I_luv_saber]

Yes, and apparently airlines ignore or circumvent them rather frequently. No doubt the fines they pay when they are discovered doing this are less than what they would have spent complying...

And as a former military man, I can but smile at the notion that inspections guarantee performance.

Of course, of course. But I feel they probably do help things quite a bit, while certainly not being perfect.

As I said, I don't know if these would exist or not hence I don't really have a firm stance at this point. I'm just curious what measures, if any, are in place to help the overall goal of safety and qaulity work.

[I_luv_saber]

One thing that I want to point out about the linked story is that a number of these off shore facitlities have NEVER been inspected by the FAA. This, to me, makes the following of proper inspection and repair procedures even lees likely to be done than in places that have moderate chance of being discovered.

This is what worries me.

It's not quite so much the fact that it's foreign work - as I noted there are already lots of foreign aircraft flying about. It's more the worry that these degrees of separation may hurt quality (to put it bluntly, if a Chinese repair company cuts corners and hundreds of people die, it's naught but a lost contract for them). That and the simple question of "Should we trust this sort of extremely delicate safety-related work to someone else without any supervision whatsoever?". It's not a knock on the quality of foreign work - it's simply a question of granting so much leeway to a company without someone looking over their shoulder.

I want that for domestic companies as well, and AFAIK that's done (albeit imperfectly). I simply am questioning whether that can be done as effectively with a foreign company.

[lindajdunn]

I want that for domestic companies as well, and AFAIK that's done (albeit imperfectly). I simply am questioning whether that can be done as effectively with a foreign company.

From personal work-related experience: It depends.

My favorite story is one wherein the contract specified the product should be tested in salt water. Actually, it was a rather detailed specification of the exact composition of the water used for testing to insure it would meet requirements for usage in the ocean.

The company tested it in TAP WATER and signed off on the contract indicating it had complied with the water solution tests as specified.

This is why the government has contract oversight. In most large contracts.

[Inquartata]

So should we just lift all the regulations, and let the free market self correct?

I am not opposed to the idea, but at this point the process is so ingrained that it would probably take a lot of time and effort to get to an equilibrium point.

Do you believe that an unregulated market would mean that businesses would just do no maintenance and inspection and pocket the money saved? I'm curious.

I want that for domestic companies as well, and AFAIK that's done (albeit imperfectly). I simply am questioning whether that can be done as effectively with a foreign company.

A) The FAA is still inspecting the aircraft. Slipshod maintenance is still going to show up.

B) The airlines are watching their contractors. Because they are aware that if there's a problem, it's not the contractor which will get sued by next of kin or investigated by the government and possibly get driven out of business. Do you believe that they are so focused on the short-run that they would ignore the consequences of an upswing in crashes for the long term? ( If so---if you believe that fundamentally all of these businesses are stupid---then I wonder you dare to fly at all, wherever their maintenance is done. )