Testing Rules Question

[omakammars]

On Saturday, I was fencing in a GA High School League Epee Tournament. I was fencing another USFA Fencer( 90% of the GHSFL membership only fences inside the league), and during the bout we had some questionable calls made by the referee( a parent with little knowledge of fencing rules), the first instance of this was when the other fencer first started asking for weapons tests after his touches(He was attacking out of distance and was nowhere near getting the touches he claimed to have gotten), eventually the fencer (after a test that showed his weapon was working) asked to change weapons. When the second weapon was brought on strip it passed, however after further testing it turned out that the weapon was not functioning. The Fencer blamed it on the strip, after the strip was reset the weapon was working again. Therefore, my touch was annulled and when i requested the Bout Committee the ref threatened to card me. Later on, both fencers protested the referee to the bout committee and asked for a director change (we were denied such change). And even later in the bout the other fencer called the bout committee over a judgement call and was given a yellow card.

My Question is, in all of the above situations, were USFA Rules followed or was there a discrepancy between the ruling and the official laws(couldn't bring myself to say rules again)

[noodle]

On Saturday, I was fencing in a GA High School League Epee Tournament. I was fencing another USFA Fencer( 90% of the GHSFL membership only fences inside the league), and during the bout we had some questionable calls made by the referee( a parent with little knowledge of fencing rules), the first instance of this was when the other fencer first started asking for weapons tests after his touches(He was attacking out of distance and was nowhere near getting the touches he claimed to have gotten), eventually the fencer (after a test that showed his weapon was working) asked to change weapons. When the second weapon was brought on strip it passed, however after further testing it turned out that the weapon was not functioning. The Fencer blamed it on the strip, after the strip was reset the weapon was working again. Therefore, my touch was annulled and when i requested the Bout Committee the ref threatened to card me. Later on, both fencers protested the referee to the bout committee and asked for a director change (we were denied such change). And even later in the bout the other fencer called the bout committee over a judgement call and was given a yellow card.

My Question is, in all of the above situations, were USFA Rules followed or was there a discrepancy between the ruling and the official laws(couldn't bring myself to say rules again)

so this is the sequence of events with respect to the weapon problems?
-weapon was asked to be tested
-referee tested the weapon and it was functioning
-fencer asked to change weapon
-new weapon was hooked in and tested
-new weapon failed.
-in testing this new weapon, a change of strip was requested
-new strip made the weapon work
-the referee annulled your touch because they said that the problem was the strip.


you can't request a referee change mid-bout. i'm not actually that sure if you, as a referee, can deny an appeal to the BC.

[erooMynohtnA]

I'm not sure about the testing procedures, because that was a fairly complicated situation. Basically, if it can be shown that the other fencer can't put on a light, the previous touch should be annulled if there were any chance that it interfered with that fencer's chances.

As far as the cards for appeal go, yes, that was fine.

[erooMynohtnA]

you can't request a referee change mid-bout. i'm not actually that sure if you, as a referee, can deny an appeal to the BC.

Right, but did the ref deny the appeal or threaten him with a group 1 for unjustified appeal if he went through with it? I'm guessing the latter, but both would be doing him a favor.

[omakammars]

so this is the sequence of events with respect to the weapon problems?
-weapon was asked to be tested
-referee tested the weapon and it was functioning
-fencer asked to change weapon
-new weapon was hooked in and tested
-new weapon failed.
-in testing this new weapon, a change of strip was requested
-new strip made the weapon work
-the referee annulled your touch because they said that the problem was the strip.


you can't request a referee change mid-bout. i'm not actually that sure if you, as a referee, can deny an appeal to the BC.

The weapon worked upon initial test and the fencer halted the bout, while fencing , to ask for another test, upon this test the weapon failed.
The only thing done to the strip was that the cords were unplugged and replugged. The bout committee denied a change of strip . The bout committee was called for the ref change request( they were the ones whom denied us said change). After 6+ trips to our strip the bout committee was more than tired of us.

[vivoescrimare]

It was my understanding from the post that the second weapon PASSED initial weights/shims testing, but then failed during actual fencing. At this point, a change of strip was requested, after which the weapon was functioning, correct?

A touch CAN be annulled by the referee following a failed test, but ONLY the immediate preceding touch. (If I get 5 touches in a row, then you finally ask to test and it fails, I only lose 1 touch.)

The rules don't technically allow for a referee change mid-bout, as far as I know, not to mention that, unfortunately, as this wasn't a USFA event it wouldn't matter if they did.

That being said, it is USFA policy to award a Group 1 (I think) yellow card in the case of an unjustified appeal. Easy way to know if an appeal is unjustified - you can never, EVER argue (appeal) what a referee SAW. You can only question their application of the rules. If a referee SAW you step off the back of the strip, you can't appeal. If he awarded you with a red card for doing it (rather than simply giving your opponent a touch) you can, because he misapplied the rule.

Further thought - it sounds like your referee was out of his/her depth and getting defensive. This, unfortunately, will happen in local "league" style events, or potentially any event in which certified, trained referees aren't used. Unfortunately, this is especially the case in epee, as people frequently think you don't need referees in epee, just a scoring box. Sorry you had a bad experience, encourage people to get better at refereeing and take the initiative to get involved. Demand your local USFA events and High School league events hire competent refs.

My more than two cents - apologies for the inevitable TLDR responses

[Omar Bhutta]

On Saturday, I was fencing in a GA High School League Epee Tournament. I was fencing another USFA Fencer( 90% of the GHSFL membership only fences inside the league), and during the bout we had some questionable calls made by the referee( a parent with little knowledge of fencing rules), the first instance of this was when the other fencer first started asking for weapons tests after his touches(He was attacking out of distance and was nowhere near getting the touches he claimed to have gotten), eventually the fencer (after a test that showed his weapon was working) asked to change weapons.

For clarity's sake, let's call you Fencer X, and your opponent Fencer Y.

If I am reading this correctly, Fencer Y turns on a light at some point (it is not clear if it is colored or white). It is also not clear if Fencer X turns on a colored light at this point either. Regardless, Y asks the referee to test his weapon and it passes. Y then asks to change weapons, and is allowed. This scenario is allowed. In fact, if no touch was scored, and there is no possibility of annulment of touch, there is no need for the referee to test the weapon. The fencer may test it himself.

When the second weapon was brought on strip it passed, however after further testing it turned out that the weapon was not functioning.

t.45 (selected portions because this rule is very long)

In whatever circumstances a fencer on the strip is found to be in possession of equipment which is non-regulation or defective, this equipment will be immediately confiscated and submitted to the experts on duty for examination (cf.m.8, m.9, m.12, m.13, m.16, m.17, m.23)....

1) If a fencer appears on the strip:
with a weapon or a bodycord which does not work or
which does not conform with the Rules...the Referee will apply the penalties according to Articles t.114, t.116, t.120 (first group).

2) 2.When during a bout an irregularity is found in the equipment which could be caused by conditions during the bout....examples: weapon or bodycord no longer functioning...the referee will apply neither warning nor penalty and any touch scored with the equipment that has become defective will be awarded.

In order to analyze this statement, more information is needed. What did the further testing consist of? And when did it occur? If the bout had effectively recommenced between the initial test and the further test, then the state of non-functioning have may been caused by the fencing, and Y should not be punished. If instead, when the weapon was first presented the referee tests the weapon (say, tests the weight) and it passes, but then before the bout starts starts going off-target, if the weapon is the cause of the off target, this fencer should be penalized for equipment non-conforming to the rules.

EDIT:

The weapon worked upon initial test and the fencer halted the bout, while fencing , to ask for another test, upon this test the weapon failed.
The only thing done to the strip was that the cords were unplugged and replugged. The bout committee denied a change of strip .

In this situation, the weapon worked initially, fencing commenced, and then did not work. No touch can be annulled in this case because fencing had recommenced, and thus may have been caused by the fencing.

Also, the fencer cannot ask for the bout to be stopped mid-fencing to ask for their weapon to be tested. This is delay of bout, and should be penalized as a group 1 offense (t.31).

END EDIT

The Fencer blamed it on the strip, after the strip was reset the weapon was working again. Therefore, my touch was annulled and when i requested the Bout Committee the ref threatened to card me.

Again, more information about what this entailed would be useful (was equipment changed out, etc?). It sounds like this entire course of events occured all at once, without fencing resuming? If so, the referee is appropriately trying to diagnose the problem, and again, if the decision is that the machine is the cause of the problem, no penalty should be awarded, and the machine should be fixed.

t.54, t.68, t.80 (selected portions from foil rule, although analogous weapon specific rules are listed for reference)

The Referee must also apply the following rules:
(a) Only the last touch made before the fault was established can be annulled.
(b) A competitor who makes any modification in or who changes his equipment without being asked by the Referee to do so, before the Referee has given his decision, loses all right to the annulment of the touch (cf. t.35/d).
(c) If the bout has effectively recommenced, a competitor cannot claim the annulment of a touch awarded against him before the said recommencement of the bout....


This is where I get confused though. When in all of this did you score a touch? And also, what specifically were you protesting? It becomes important, because if you read t.54 in entirety, it becomes clear that annulment of a touch becomes complicated quickly.

t.122 (bolding mine)

(a) Against a decision of the Referee
No appeal can be made against the decision of the Referee regarding a point of fact (cf. t.95/c, t.96/b).
If a fencer infringes this principle, casting doubt on the decision of the Referee on a point of fact during the bout, he will be penalized according to the rules (cf. t.114. t.116, t.120). But if the Referee is ignorant of or misunderstands a definite rule, or applies it in a manner contrary to the Rules, an appeal on this matter may be entertained.
This appeal must be made: — in individual events, by the fencer; — in team events, by the fencer or the team captain. This appeal should be made courteously but without formality, and should be made verbally to the Referee immediately and before any decision is made regarding a subsequent touch. If the Referee maintains his opinion, the Head Referee has authority to settle an appeal (cf. t.97). If such an appeal is deemed to be unjustified, the fencer will be penalized in accordance with Articles t.114, t.116, t.120.


A referee should never threaten a fencer with a card. The proper procedure for dealing with a protest is as follows:

Fencer X registers protest.
Referee informs Bout Committee of protest, and discusses situation and ruling.
Bout Committee upholds or overturns referee's decision, and informs fencer.
If ruling upheld, Fencer X is given a yellow card for Unjustified Appeal.

Later on, both fencers protested the referee to the bout committee and asked for a director change (we were denied such change).

This is appropriate, as the rules do not provide for the fencers to request a change in their referee. The fencer always has the right to have the referee observed by the Head Referee for that tournament, but fencers may not request a different one.

And even later in the bout the other fencer called the bout committee over a judgement call and was given a yellow card.

Again, this may have been quite appropriate, see t.122 above. In regards to decisions that can be protested, fencers may only protest matters of rules application, not matters of fact.

For instance, the referee says, "Beat attack, left" and the fencer protests, "No sir, it was my parry riposte from right, I protest." This is a matter of fact. The referee said it occurred, so it did. This cannot be protested. But if the referee says, "You stepped off the strip with one foot, touch for the opponent," you may protest the application of the rule. "No sir, it should be that my opponent advances one meter." If the appeal was unjustified, this is a group one offense.

My Question is, in all of the above situations, were USFA Rules followed or was there a discrepancy between the ruling and the official laws(couldn't bring myself to say rules again)

If you can provide that extra info, this question can be answered. Hope this helps.

I'm not sure about the testing procedures, because that was a fairly complicated situation. Basically, if it can be shown that the other fencer can't put on a light, the previous touch should be annulled if there were any chance that it interfered with that fencer's chances.

As far as the cards for appeal go, yes, that was fine.

The qualifier I would add to this statement, is that fencing cannot have recommenced. The other important thing to consider with protests is the timeliness. Only the previous touch can be annulled, but only if the protest is made before fencing recommences.

[oiuyt]

If I am reading this correctly, Fencer Y turns on a light at some point (it is not clear if it is colored or white).

It might not be COMPLETELY clear, but I think a reasonable inference from the first line in the OP (emphasis added)....

On Saturday, I was fencing in a GA High School League Epee Tournament.

-B

[Omar Bhutta]

It might not be COMPLETELY clear, but I think a reasonable inference from the first line in the OP (emphasis added)....



-B

HA!

Thank you, thank you.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

On Saturday, I was fencing in a GA High School League Epee Tournament. I was fencing another USFA Fencer( 90% of the GHSFL membership only fences inside the league), and during the bout we had some questionable calls made by the referee( a parent with little knowledge of fencing rules)

Epee refs have to test weapons. Watch carefully how they test your weapon and how they test your opponent's weapon. You want to watch them see that you're actually plugged in and that the wires are connected/there's no switch, that the wires aren't popping out, that the barrel seems solid, that there are two tip screws, and that it passes weights and shims. And you also want to make sure that the ref does this process in (roughly) the same order every time. A very good professional ref will automatically look at everything (even if the conference doesn't mandate it). Most people cut corners somewhere in that process, particularly for reffing high school students.

If they're cutting corners, they're likely to not know all the rules, or not care enough to be paying enough attention to apply them properly. If they don't test your weapon properly, do not assume that they will be applying rules appropriately. They might. But if anything funky happens, don't be surprised if someone gets screwed over, the bout committee has to be called over, or you have to politely remind the ref of the rules in question. Prepare yourself, and worry about having fun rather than winning. Or at least winning without weapons breaking, crossing, or touching each other....

[Rockstar44]

After 6+ trips to our strip the bout committee was more than tired of us.

No, really?