Doubling up on events

[Peach]

I attended a regional tournament last week. The epee and sabre were held on the same day. A gentleman was doing both events. We were short of referees, so we flighted the sabre pools; I refereed a pool and then fenced my pool, and then we started the DEs. However, the epee DEs were going on at the same time. He was having a good day and winning, so when our DE was called I told our referee I would wait until he was free. Several sabre DEs later, his bout had been over for a few minutes, and I hooked up while the referee called him. He came over, and said, "Could you wait?"

I said no. I had been waiting for about an hour and a half at that point, having started late anyway.

"Then I default," he said. He said that it would be different if I hadn't beaten him decisively in the pool already. He went off, and lost his next DE in the epee.

Cranky and tired from having taken four hours to do five bouts, and from having to stay warm, hydrated, and awake while refereeing and hanging around, I refereed some more and got one whole DE after that. It was a very good bout and I worked on some stuff I wanted to work on, but even if I were in great shape I have never been able to beat that particular opponent anyway.

I had driven two hours for practically no fencing. I don't expect that the DE I missed would have been anything to write home about, but at least it would have been a bout. And if he was going to withdraw, it would have been nice to know it about an hour earlier.

I will say I have doubled up myself, though not for years now.

I wish people wouldn't treat fencing tournaments as if they were all-you-can-eat buffets. And I wish organizers would be a little more firm about it. The organizer at this one said helplessly to me, "I don't know what to do about people who fence two events."

[epeemike81]

Sounds like that particular gentleman was not handling double stripping very well. I have double stripped a number of times and have not had a problem. From the organizers POV, that young man should NOT be allowed time between bouts due to double stripping. If I fence my epee DE and they are waiting for my sabre DE, then I have to hook up right away. no time off. If they have to skip my pool bouts because I am in DE's in another weapon, then I have to fence them rapid fire to make it up. Remember, somebody who CHOOSES to double strip does NOT get extra time.

-m

[haggis]

At most competitions in Britain, when sabre and epee are on the same day, you will only be allowed to fence one event. Unless you fence in the epee (which usually starts early) and managed to get knocked out before the sabre starts.

[Craig]

At a large event where my opponent was fencing 2 weapons it came time for us to fence. (Pools, he was doing epee and foil.)

The referees were told to keep the event moving and so he called the fencer to strip (who was fencing a bout in his epee pool) and then started the clock.

After 2 minutes, the ref said I could take the forfeit per the rules. My opponent came running over and was hooked up by about 2:30 elapsed, so we went ahead and fenced, but the ref was just as ready to call the next bout.

IMO, this is the way to run it. If the fencer is in 2 events, then it's up to them to figure out how to fence bouts quick enough to jump from one to the other and to be prepared to forfeit bouts if they aren't able to show for their pool/DE bout at the appointed time.

Organizers just need to be firm about it and make sure the fencer knows at the start of the event that the rules will be enforced.

Cheers,
Craig

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by webmaster
At a large event where my opponent was fencing 2 weapons it came time for us to fence. (Pools, he was doing epee and foil.)

The referees were told to keep the event moving and so he called the fencer to strip (who was fencing a bout in his epee pool) and then started the clock.

After 2 minutes, the ref said I could take the forfeit per the rules. My opponent came running over and was hooked up by about 2:30 elapsed, so we went ahead and fenced, but the ref was just as ready to call the next bout.

IMO, this is the way to run it. If the fencer is in 2 events, then it's up to them to figure out how to fence bouts quick enough to jump from one to the other and to be prepared to forfeit bouts if they aren't able to show for their pool/DE bout at the appointed time.

Organizers just need to be firm about it and make sure the fencer knows at the start of the event that the rules will be enforced.

Cheers,
Craig

This seems a bit harsh to me, as it does not slow the competition down at all to skip over bouts in pools, as long as the double stripper fences all his bouts back to back when he is available. It is quite often simply NOT possible to double strip without at least allowing slight restructuring of pool order. the key is that he gets no time between those pool bouts when he gets back.

Mind you, I am not saying double stripping should be allowed at very large tournaments, like Pomme de Terre in NE Div, DitD, NACs, etc.... but at local events of < about 40 ppl, I see no problem with it. if you are going to allow double stripping, you have to give some allowance.

BTW, under what rules could you take a forfeit?? under USFA rules, that would have been a black card, and it would have been as if he were never in the pool. After all, it would hardly be fair if the other four ppl in your pool had to fence him, and you got a free victory.

-m

[darius]

It would have been nicer if the events had been spaced out a little more.

By spacing the event times out a bit, you're not losing anything, since the main bottlenecks were strips and referees, and events were starting two hours late anyway, so closing registration an hour late wouldn't have affected much.

It also allows the tournament organizers to not worry so much about micromanaging which events go on which strips -- instead, concentrate on getting a certain event down to a manageable level for one or two strips.

I had some teammates fencing 2 and 3 events in one day; and they weren't causing their respective referees any trouble -- not to be elitist, but it seemed that most of the people fencing multiple weapons weren't particularly proficient in either, so getting most of the field eliminated before the next weapon starts would probably help that situation.

Those who did well in multiple events generally had a good idea of where they needed to be, when, and what lame to wear.

Of course, they should ban gimpy refs, too. All that hobbling to the bout committee table slows up the entire event...

darius

[Peach]

Originally posted by darius
Of course, they should ban gimpy refs, too. All that hobbling to the bout committee table slows up the entire event...

darius

It's all the pointing and doubling over laughing we were doing that slowed things down. It was mesmerizing to watch someone referee on one foot.

[darius]

It's all the pointing and doubling over laughing we were doing that slowed things down. It was mesmerizing to watch someone referee on one foot.

Crutches make hand signals dangerous to fencers. Think of the children.

darius

[oiuyt]

I routinely double strip (routinely means I double more often than I fence only 1 weapon). I also tend to make it reasonably far into competitions so conflicts end up happening fairly frequently. As previously mentioned, the largest events don't allow this (it does slow things down somewhat). Specifically NAC/Nationals don't, and as mentioned, the Pomme de Terre doesn't (in both cases an individual entry and a team entry can be done on the same day). I've been told by Evan Rames that it would be allowed at the Duel in the Desert.

As Epeemike pointed out, I don't expect to be given any break time. If I have 10 minutes between sabre DEs and spend the entire time "resting" by fencing an epee DE, that's my own fault. And then when I spend the 10 minutes between epee DEs fencing a sabre DE, still my fault. Repeat. Eventually either the tournaments end or I get eliminated from one or both.

If I'm at a tournament where I won't be allowed to double strip, fine, I'll choose a weapon. Otherwise some accomidation needs to be made. Forfeiting a bout without reason (eg injury) should be grounds for a black card. Yes, we could take the hardline approach, allow double stripping and then effectively ban it by not making allowances and giving people 3 minutes to get to strip. This brings up the interesting issue of what to do at qualifiers. Most divisions hold qualifiers for all weapons on the same day. In my experience it would be hard to so stagger the events that there is no overlap. It seems fairly harsh to say, "sorry, you can't qualify to nationals in some events which you would be able to because you prefer another weapon."

Ack, I'm mauling the wording of what I'm trying to say. Yes, we can be hardcore and not allow people to be good at more than one weapon. Is this something which we want to do? It can cause some problems and delays. If the person who's double stripping is at all considerate these delays are not excessive. Peach- the problems for you were NOT primarily due to the double stripping. The delays would have been there anyway. Okay, you had a slightly longer wait between pools and your first DE rather than between your first and second DE. That happens just if you'd seeded further down in the tableau (not a worse seed, but further down the page). The fact that the individual in question was rude and withdrew from a competition rather than fence as expected caused a problem, namely that you lost the opportunity to have a bout you should have had. While his double stripping obviously helped to contribute to his making the decision, double stripping was not the cause of his actions. The majority of people who double strip would've been waiting, suited, for the bout before yours to finish (that's what the couple of minutes after his most recent epee DE should've been used for) and been ready to get on strip when called. Had he done so (which is the only reasonable course of action) then there's no issue. This is a complaint about an individual, not about double stripping.

-B :)

[Peach]

The majority of people who double strip would've been waiting, suited, for the bout before yours to finish (that's what the couple of minutes after his most recent epee DE should've been used for) and been ready to get on strip when called. Had he done so (which is the only reasonable course of action) then there's no issue. This is a complaint about an individual, not about double stripping.

No, it's not only a complaint about an individual. It's me getting fed up over a final rather extreme example of something that's been annoying to begin with, and also getting fed up with organizers who don't enforce good tournament behavior or don't schedule the tournaments properly.

I don't doubt that you, a fairly compulsive, ethical, and meticulous person, do a pretty good job of doubling up. In my experience most people, however, don't.

Most of the time in most events where competitors double up, they're NOT waiting suited up for the bout before mine to finish. They're half way across the room not even realizing they're holding up the event I'm in, which since it's sabre ALREADY has short bursts of activity interspersed between far-too-long intervals.

Before they banned doubling up in NACs I had pools where a fencer was doing two events, and there was a lot of referee calls, sweaty panting fencers running over, rushing, dressing on the strip, apologizing, forgetting things, and general disorder. I've had a pool readjust their bout order to accommodate a fencer who was in another event, and it was a pain then, too because we were doing all the bouts in a weird order to begin with and the referee had a hard time keeping track of things. (It being women's sabre there was also a fair amount of crying because the fencer was just coming from a DE she'd just lost.)

It's just not necessary.

I am not objecting to doubling up per se. I am objecting to making any more than the minimum to accommodate it.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Peach
It's just not necessary.

Since fencing is by itself not necessary, I am going to interpret this statement as meaning "its not important", thus implying that double strippers only care about their primary weapon and the secondary gets shafted (like the gentleman you mention). This position ignores fencers like Oiuyt, who is good at , and ambitious in, two weapons. Again, I suppose it depends on who you have seen double strip. I have, admittedly, seen some very poor doubling. On the other hand, the vast majority of Double stripping I have seen has been well done. generally people who double do it frequently and thus well. There is a gentleman in NE Div who triple strips, and I have never seen him late to a bout.

I am not objecting to doubling up per se. I am objecting to making any more than the minimum to accommodate it.

shuffling bout order IS the minimum accomodation. it is impossible without a whole lot of luck on timing without that. At reasonably sized events, this does not cause serious delays, and at particularly large ones it is not allowed.

-m

[KShan5[PrFC]]

In my past two tournaments, I have had one person doubling p in my pools. One experience didn't phase me, the man did his best to get a few pool bouts in before he had to go fence a DE again. Then the other time was hourendous, although it also had to do with the attitude of the person and just who he was, it was not enjoyable. He didn't care about the people he was putting out to double strip. The only enjoyable part came, when he came to febnce his pools, he went 1-4. He was just an *** the whole time, and we enjoyed beating him.

So what I am saying is, I conquer with Oiuyt. It depends on the person. If you are going to doubel strip, you have to be a nice person, at least for a few hours.

[Peach]

Hmmm . . . I think you're missing my point. Once again, I don't object to doubling up. I do object to organizers running events so that doubling up seriously inconveniences those people who choose to focus on one event, and I object to individuals who do not make the maximum effort to cause the least fuss and problems. And yes, I do object to changing the bout order drastically when it means screwing up or delaying the progress of the event for fencers who have a right to expect at least the minimum predictability. I don't think it's necessary to design an event so that obliging the wishes of a very few people inconveniences the maximum number of others.

I liked Darius' response, which suggested some ways that the doubling up could have caused fewer problems. The epee started late, and if it had started on time and the sabre had been scheduled to start later there would have been fewer problems. I knew going in that it would start late and probably be short of referees because that happens with this event, I just didn't expect it to have other problems as well.

Since fencing is by itself not necessary, I am going to interpret this statement as meaning "its not important"
Silly person What I meant by "it's not necessary" is it's not necessary to have that much disorder in a reasonably run tournament, and I was referring to the previous paragraph, not to fencing in general. Sometimes a raven is like a writing desk

[Inquartata]

I too was in a tournament not long ago where halfway through the DE table in the sabre we had to wait quite a long time for no one but TWO fellows who were primarily epeeists and who BOTH had DEs going on in that weapon. In another gym, no less. we couldn't schedule around them because their scheduled DE was against each other...

Anyway, being from a small Division I am philosophical about the practice of doubling ( or even tripling ) events, inasmuch as cozening epeeists and foilists into doing the sabre is about the only way to cobble together any sort of a decent event. Can't very well ask them to PLEEEEEEASE fence sabre and then be vexed with them for not being all that eager to hurry up, possibly at the cost of their performance in their "real" event...or the next time they just won't do it at all.

[fence1848]

Having organized several tournaments myself, and having seen some other divisions organize them, I think that most of the time, it is not so much the fencers who are to blame, but organizers who try to put too many events into one day. We rarely did more than 2 events in one day, and this year we pushed the start time for saber back an hour so that they didn't have to show up at 12:30 only to wait around for 2 hours until strips and refs were available. Being one of those people who doubles up on events, I've never found it to be a problem because I can sometimes finish an entire saber pool during the course of one epee DE. And the constant moving helps me stay active and really prepares me for saber DEs. I don't WANT a break! Must be all the pixie stix I ate between pool bouts.