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Senior Member
Array 
 Originally Posted by oiuyt  Mmmm. A sudden-death minute is substantially different than expiration of regulation time. Your suggestion of having the flip at the end of the sudden-death minute does offer something (other than additional fencing) beyond skipping the overtime completely.
-B It would even out the overtime minute, giving both fencers incentive to score. No one would like losing on a coin flip...
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Senior Member
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Originally Posted by dcrocket It would even out the overtime minute, giving both fencers incentive to score. No one would like losing on a coin flip... I don't understand why the incentive to not lose on a coin flip would be different in an overtime minute as opposed to the end of regulation if you were to just have the coin flip determine the winner at the end of the period.
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Originally Posted by Emfuser Ok then, lets put this to rest, shall we?
It so happens that the details of the discussion at hand were actually sent
to Bill Oliver, head of the FOC rules commission, the day after the meet.
Below is his reply:
And, as an aside, one wonders what kind of fencer would go into the final
tie-breaking minute not knowing whether they had priority or not? The
reporter's veracity is highly questionable on this matter.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. XXXXXXX,
The appropriate rule is article 0.17(b).
If at the end of regulation time the scores are equal, the fencers fence for
a deciding touch, with a maximum time limit of one minute. Before the
fencing recommences, the Referee draws lots to decide who will be the winner
if scores are still equal at the end of the extra minute.
In this case the score registered on the score-sheet is always the actual
score achieved in the bout:
There is no requirement that the designation of priority be noted on the
score sheet, nor is there a requirement that the fencer who is awarded
priority be designated in any particular way. It is usually the practice
for the referee to ensure that both fencers are fully aware of the priority,
often by directly informing them of the fact, but that is not mandated. Just
good policy, so as to avoid just this sort of difficulty.
However, as you correctly point out, all this is academic, as the protest
was not made in a timely manner. The protest should have been made before
the losing fencer unhooked from the scoring apparatus. Once unhooked, there
is no possibility of protesting anything that happened during that bout.
This sort of protest is not unjustified. Just untimely. In any event, no
penalty carries over to subsequent bouts. All penalties are done at the end
of the bout.
I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Bill Oliver
Chair, FOC Rules Committee so, i also personally witnessed the event happen, and as it is recounted in this letter is not quite how it happened.
there was no unhooking, the appeal was almost immediate after the winner was declared and confusion cleared ("wait, who won?"), both fencers were still on strip and hooked up.
the issue at hand is the person who determined priority was very ambiguous with respect to designating it. it had nothing to do with one side not knowing if they had priority -- both sides genuinely thought they did.
Last edited by noodle; 10-16-2009 at 04:01 PM.
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Senior Member
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Originally Posted by noodle so, i also personally witnessed the event happen, and as it is recounted in this letter is not quite how it happened.
there was no unhooking, the appeal was almost immediate after the winner was declared and confusion cleared ("wait, who won?"), both fencers were still on strip and hooked up.
the issue at hand is the person who determined priority was very ambiguous with respect to designating it. it had nothing to do with one side not knowing if they had priority -- both sides genuinely thought they did. In that case, it seems the situation would need to be recreated and posed to Mr. Oliver by an eye witness, rather than one who is admittedly speaking from second-hand perspective, and is thus limited by the accuracy of the person who told them.
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Senior Member
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Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA I don't understand why the incentive to not lose on a coin flip would be different in an overtime minute as opposed to the end of regulation if you were to just have the coin flip determine the winner at the end of the period. Probably the water in Winconsin.
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Senior Member
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Interesting that Oliver says there is no requirement to designate the priority on the scoresheet.
I think I could have avoided this controversy. After I flip the coin I announce to both fencers that I am placing the coin on the side of the fencer with the priority. Whoopee! My avatar is back.
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Senior Member
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Clever. Leaving no indication of priority is silly, it just allows room for confusion :P
P.s. What is overtime Priority? In Flanders fields the poppies grow - Between the crosses, row on row, - That mark our place, and in the sky, - The larks, still bravely singing, fly, - Scarce heard amid the guns below. ~John McCrae
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I always give heads to the right, tails to the left. In addition to marking it on the scoresheet, I always put the coin on the table (or leave it on the floor sometimes) with the side it landed with still up.
If I'm unfortunate enough not to have a box that offers automatic priority deciding and indicating. The Full-Arm-07 is exceptionally nice about that.
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Senior Member
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Originally Posted by dcrocket Don't forget the ever-popular remote flipping.... But they are much more fragile than coins. I caught this morning morning’s minion, king-
dom of daylight’s dauphin, dapple-dawn-drawn Falcon, in his riding
Of the rolling level underneath him steady air, and striding
High there, how he rung upon the rein of a wimpling wing
In his ecstasy! then off, off forth on swing,
As a skate’s heel sweeps smooth on a bow-bend: the hurl and gliding
Rebuffed the big wind. My heart in hiding
Stirred for a bird,—the achieve of; the mastery of the thing!
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That was decidedly tongue in cheek. Remotes are probably less fragile than referees when someone has seen them flip the remote.
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Senior Member
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK That was decidedly tongue in cheek. Remotes are probably less fragile than referees when someone has seen them flip the remote. At least no-one has suggested flipping referees yet  I caught this morning morning’s minion, king-
dom of daylight’s dauphin, dapple-dawn-drawn Falcon, in his riding
Of the rolling level underneath him steady air, and striding
High there, how he rung upon the rein of a wimpling wing
In his ecstasy! then off, off forth on swing,
As a skate’s heel sweeps smooth on a bow-bend: the hurl and gliding
Rebuffed the big wind. My heart in hiding
Stirred for a bird,—the achieve of; the mastery of the thing!
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Posting Hound
Array 
Originally Posted by Insipiens At least no-one has suggested flipping referees yet There are some refs you CAN'T flip!!
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Curmudgeon Emeritus
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Hmm....did you have anyone specific in mind? Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!
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Originally Posted by Purple Fencer There are some refs you CAN'T flip!! Most of the rest you can fairly easily roll...
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Curmudgeon Emeritus
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In Purple Fencer's neck of the woods, would that be a California roll? Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!
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