The authority to card

[catwood1]

National event: A fencer gets a touch and makes a rather boisterous and prolonged scream. The referee of that fencer finds the scream to be acceptable. The referee on the strip directly across disagree, and decides that he/she will card that fencer.

You guys think he has the right / authority to do so?

[noodle]

i've seen similar things happen. so, yes.

[Chafunkta]

I wouldn't think so, and I would be very upset if a referee on another strip carded a fencer on my strip. That would immediately take away all my credibility.

Terrible, terrible idea.

[Philistine]

Conceptually, why is a fencer making a loud ruckus while fencing on another strip any different than that same fencer making a loud ruckus watching a bout?

In either event, couldn't he be carded for disturbing order--not on the strip he is fencing (because that fencing has ceased for the moment), but on another strip?

Though presumably, he should be carded as a person "not on the strip who disturbs the order of the competition" (which is yellow card for the competition for 1st offense and expulsion for 2nd under Rule t118).

Though I'd expect an appeal....

--Philistine

[Superscribe]

I think the authority exists. A ref can card ... just about anybody for disrupting their bout, right?

[TrainingDummy]

National event: A fencer gets a touch and makes a rather boisterous and prolonged scream. The referee of that fencer finds the scream to be acceptable. The referee on the strip directly across disagree, and decides that he/she will card that fencer.

You guys think he has the right / authority to do so?

This is an interesting scenario. Throwing out right/authority for a minute, here's how I think it breaks down pragmatically.

On the one hand, having a referee from another piste card a fencer on your piste takes away form your authority as a ref. Not only that, but we purposefully pick refs who have no reason to favor either fencer - allowing a ref from one piste to card a fencer on another piste makes collusion or at least favoritism easier for a ref to get away with. Finally, where do you draw the line? We don't want refs to hang out at a different piste between bouts, ready to card the opponent of his or her favored fencer. I know that's unlikely and I certainly don't want to diss our refs, but it's a possibility.

On the other hand, it's certainly possible for a new ref to let an egregious rule violation go uncarded, or for ANY ref to have his or her back turned/mind elsewhere when a penalty occurs. In that case, we'd want a ref from another piste to intervene. Safety violations, at least, should be immediately rectified by any ref who notices them.

[epeemike81]

Such authority exists, but should NEVER be used. If the presiding referee finds the behavior acceptable, it is INCREDIBLY inappropriate for another referee to step in and card one of the fencers (thus effectively undermining the presiding referee).

Did this happen recently?

-m

[erooMynohtnA]

Such authority exists, but should NEVER be used.

This.

[Allen Evans]

If the bout has not officially ended, I think the only person with the authority to card the fencer is the referee on the strip. If the bout has ended, any referee has the authority to card a fencer for unsportsmanlike conduct if, for example, they walk off the strip and punt their mask.

In your example, Catwood, it would appear that the bout is in progress (the fencers are still hooked up, have not saluted, or shaken hands) and the referee on the strip is solely responsible for any cards.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I feel that if it is actually disturbing order on the strip of the other referee, then that referee has the right to card. However, I feel that they do not have the right to award a red card. To me, they can only award the yellow card that one can award a coach or spectator, not a card that can affect the bout (except if it would disqualify the fencer).

[Purple Fencer]

I feel that if it is actually disturbing order on the strip of the other referee, then that referee has the right to card. However, I feel that they do not have the right to award a red card. To me, they can only award the yellow card that one can award a coach or spectator, not a card that can affect the bout (except if it would disqualify the fencer).

Ed Richards almost carded a particular female sabeur at a local a few years back.....those who fenced in SoCal in the late 90s/early 00s know what fencer I mean...she was infamous.

[epeemike81]

If the bout has not officially ended, I think the only person with the authority to card the fencer is the referee on the strip. If the bout has ended, any referee has the authority to card a fencer for unsportsmanlike conduct if, for example, they walk off the strip and punt their mask.

In your example, Catwood, it would appear that the bout is in progress (the fencers are still hooked up, have not saluted, or shaken hands) and the referee on the strip is solely responsible for any cards.

Not true. The referee has the authority to card ANYBODY for disturbing order off strip. It would be a spectator warning, not a G3 Red, but the referee can, in fact, give a spectator warning to anybody including active fencers or referees on other strips.

They certainly shouldn't, though.

-m

[forethought]

To those of the opinion that the ref on the adjacent strip should not award a penalty, do you think it would be unprofessional for that referee to inform, in a courteous manner, the presiding referee to the fact that their fencer's boisterous and prolonged screams are disturbing order on the adjacent strip, and ask that they not allow such behavior?

[seven6ty]

Ed Richards almost carded a particular female sabeur at a local a few years back.....those who fenced in SoCal in the late 90s/early 00s know what fencer I mean...she was infamous.

Funny, I know who you're talking about by the ear piercing shriek she normally gave. I have nooo idea who that was though, as I didn't fence sabre.

[AkiraRagnas]

To those of the opinion that the ref on the adjacent strip should not award a penalty, do you think it would be unprofessional for that referee to inform, in a courteous manner, the presiding referee to the fact that their fencer's boisterous and prolonged screams are disturbing order on the adjacent strip, and ask that they not allow such behavior?

I was going to suggest that as an alternate method. Gets the job done without discrediting anybody.

[Purple Fencer]

Funny, I know who you're talking about by the ear piercing shriek she normally gave. I have nooo idea who that was though, as I didn't fence sabre.

I knew someone would get it!

Sadly, she was surpassed a couple of years back by the entire UCSD womens epee team...they were on the other side of the venue at UCLA and when they let loose, the windows rattled, dogs came from miles around, and myself, Carl Oberg, and Joe Seal all got headaches!!

Even Hellen Keller was heard to say "Dayam!"

[catwood1]

To those of the opinion that the ref on the adjacent strip should not award a penalty, do you think it would be unprofessional for that referee to inform, in a courteous manner, the presiding referee to the fact that their fencer's boisterous and prolonged screams are disturbing order on the adjacent strip, and ask that they not allow such behavior?

There wasn't a bout going on on the adjacent strip, as it was during a 10 minute break. The referee said "do you want to card them, or should I?" I responded by saying "They're fine. I'm not going to card them."

[notalent]

In what catwood is describing I wouldn't card but I might ask the ref after the bout about it. In a NAC we don't really share ref space. At a local event some years ago I was sharing ref space between 2 strips, the other ref was making calls that a coach didn't like. This went on thru the pool and towards the end of the pool the coach started to get more combatitve, loudly so. I did my best to concentrate on my pool. Finally after an outburst that distracted me from my bout and cost someone a touch, I turned around pulled out my yellow card and said "Mister Cotton, that is enough". So I would say there are times where it would be appropriate. I have asked fencers to on strips behind me not to yell in my ears, that typically works.

[catwood1]

With shared ref space I can understand it more.

This was an example of a boy that had a *rather* loud and high pitched scream. It was pretty annoying to listen to. But ABSOLUTELY legal.

[notalent]

With shared ref space I can understand it more.

This was an example of a boy that had a *rather* loud and high pitched scream. It was pretty annoying to listen to. But ABSOLUTELY legal.

I learned how to fence sabre in the 80s yelling was part of the game
I do ask that they yell away from their opponents, but that is so that things don't escalate.
Sounds like you handled it fine.