The authority to card

[Mac A. Bee]

...whoever was spoken to about submitting for reestablishing a dropped rating was incorrect. The evaluations we look at for the advancement of ratings for 5 and above at the FOC meeting are compiled form the NAC's And the National Championships...Any FOC...can award a rating anywhere from a 9 to a 5 at tournaments where the strength of the competition allows this to happen...did not fully understand this and he submitted all his local events and letters of endorsement

A FOC suggested that I submit my body-of-work. The Chair said he'd compile references. I provided same. The demotion effectively blocked my NAC/SN hiring, leaving only Division, Sectional and Intercollegiate A-level ref'ing exemplars. As an FOC wrote: You do your best to improve, and are exemplary in your comportment and demeanor....you have managed to earn a reputation for being difficult, and contrary with some members of the FOC.

Are National Coaches any different?

[Inquartata]

Well, I'd like to think my tone would be somewhat more polite than that, but.... yeah. If I thought the fencer were disturbing order, I would have carded them already, so my opinion on that is unlikely to be changed by the other referee.

So, as long as something is not distracting to you, you cannot conceive of the possibility that it might be so to another referee, and that by you actions you might be making it harder for him to do [/i]his[/i] job? That doesn't strike you as even a tiny bit selfish?

You're probably the guy who plays rap music at full volume at 3 a.m. and tells his elderly neighbors to get over it when they ask you to turn it down, too...

In my practical experience, btw, referee B tends to be somebody who has an issue with yelling in general. Since I, the rules, and the international community do NOT have a problem with yelling in general, we are unlikely to see eye to eye about what is or is not disturbing order.

-m

Nevertheless, it is not about your belief being "better" than his. It is about making his job harder unnecessarily, and it sounds like it's just because you feel all territorial about "your strip"...

[epeemike81]

So, as long as something is not distracting to you, you cannot conceive of the possibility that it might be so to another referee, and that by you actions you might be making it harder for him to do [/i]his[/i] job? That doesn't strike you as even a tiny bit selfish?

You're probably the guy who plays rap music at full volume at 3 a.m. and tells his elderly neighbors to get over it when they ask you to turn it down, too...



Nevertheless, it is not about your belief being "better" than his. It is about making his job harder unnecessarily, and it sounds like it's just because you feel all territorial about "your strip"...

just because something is distracting to somebody does not mean that it rises to the level of "disturbing order".

If it did, that card would be thrown WAY more frequently, and not just for yelling.

-m

[telkanuru]

Er... aren't we pushing the boundaries of civility here a bit?

Yes, we are.

[telkanuru]

just because something is distracting to somebody does not mean that it rises to the level of "disturbing order".

If it did, that card would be thrown WAY more frequently, and not just for yelling.

-m

All the well-endowed women wouldn't be allowed in the venue at all!

[Inquartata]

If it did, that card would be thrown WAY more frequently, and not just for yelling.

-m

I'm not convinced of that logic. There are a lot of possible reasons why it's not thrown that often, including ones involving the simple dynamics of human interaction. Things like peer pressure, conflict avoidance, group solidarity, a concern for expediency, and so on.

I mean, if we are going by your logic then the fact that we don't see cards for one fencer bell-guarding another onto his kiester in an Olympic bout means that such things "don't rise to the level of a simple corps-a-corps, much less of blow with guard". The fact that refs ignore infractions doesn't mean they aren't infractions...

[telkanuru]

The fact that refs ignore infractions doesn't mean they aren't infractions...

But a referee making a judgement of fact that it isn't an infraction does mean that it isn't an infraction.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

So, as long as something is not distracting to you, you cannot conceive of the possibility that it might be so to another referee, and that by you actions you might be making it harder for him to do [/i]his[/i] job? That doesn't strike you as even a tiny bit selfish?

You're probably the guy who plays rap music at full volume at 3 a.m. and tells his elderly neighbors to get over it when they ask you to turn it down, too...

Playing loud music in the wee hours, when it's loud enough that the elderly neighbors to hear, is actually against the law in many (most?) jurisdictions. If Mike doesn't turn it down, the neighbors have the right to call the cops, and then Mike will have to turn it down.

If you're upset that the ref won't "turn down the volume of the fencers", you can complain to the bout committee, and see what their definition of "disturbing order" is. Depending on their personal interpretations, you may or may not get backup. But there are a whole lot of very good refs who will tell you to go away and stop bothering them.

[Joe biebel]

The situation in the original post was pretty specific and good arguements on both sides have been made. I would say that a referee on a different strip certainly could intervine. The noisy fencer scenario is kind of iffy, but what about something that happens on strip "A" that the ref can't see, but the Referee on strip "B" or an FOC sees. I'm not talking about reconstructing an action, but more on the lines of behavior. I'm pretty sure that if I observed someone behind a referee making obscene gestures for example, and the ref did not see it, and I (as a ref or FOC person) witnessed it, I would black card them. In fact if the person were acting badly, overtop unsportmanlike in a public way, I would throw the card, even if the referee of record observed it and did nothing.

[Mac A. Bee]

...if I observed someone behind a referee making obscene gestures for example, and the ref did not see it, and I (as a ref or FOC person) witnessed it, I would black card them.

But you're not a active rated referee. Those that are have been conditioned to minimize Black Carding (BCing). A 20something SN ref BC'd a national coach after feeling menaced. That was overturned. I BC'd an interscholastic meet fencer for refusing to shake his winning opponent's hand and drop-kicking his mask which landed in the middle of an active bout. That was one of the stated demotion reasons.

[mdstasinos]

But you're not a active rated referee. Those that are have been conditioned to minimize Black Carding (BCing). A 20something SN ref BC'd a national coach after feeling menaced. That was overturned. I BC'd an interscholastic meet fencer for refusing to shake his winning opponent's hand and drop-kicking his mask which landed in the middle of an active bout. That was one of the stated demotion reasons.

I would love to see that letter or email that stated that was a reason for your demotion. I was at the meeting and that was never brought up. You know where to send it.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

[mdstasinos]

The situation in the original post was pretty specific and good arguements on both sides have been made. I would say that a referee on a different strip certainly could intervine. The noisy fencer scenario is kind of iffy, but what about something that happens on strip "A" that the ref can't see, but the Referee on strip "B" or an FOC sees. I'm not talking about reconstructing an action, but more on the lines of behavior. I'm pretty sure that if I observed someone behind a referee making obscene gestures for example, and the ref did not see it, and I (as a ref or FOC person) witnessed it, I would black card them. In fact if the person were acting badly, overtop unsportmanlike in a public way, I would throw the card, even if the referee of record observed it and did nothing.

Joe, I would agree with your assessment and I know of one example where this has taken place. It is not that referees are taught not to give Black Cards, they are suppose to control the Field of play and the two fencers. As in the example give earlier about Black Carding some body for not shaking hands and then throwing their mask. Well, if I had been the referee I would have warned the fencer that not saluting your opponent at the end of the bout is a black card offense, (Not Shaking Hands), and that may have diffused the throwing of the mask if it had been handled properly. On the other hand if the referee at strip had turned his back at the end of the bout and the fencer chucked his mask, kicked the barrier, did anything unsportsmanlike, I would not hesitate to card that individual. I have witnessed other FOC members doing the same.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

[Fiat Slug]

On the other hand if the referee at strip had turned his back at the end of the bout and the fencer chucked his mask, kicked the barrier, did anything unsportsmanlike, I would not hesitate to card that individual. I have witnessed other FOC members doing the same.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

Mark,

If I understand your comments correctly, you're saying that if the referee for strip X failed to see an offense, a random referee can step in and isue a yellow/red/black card to the offending fencer. Can you provide the reference to the rulebook that clarifies this situation? IMHO, a referee's rulings (or lack of) should only be overruled by the BC and not by another referree. However, if the rulebook has a different view on this, then I'd love to re-read the section if you can point me at it.

Thanks.

[Omar Bhutta]

Mark,

If I understand your comments correctly, you're saying that if the referee for strip X failed to see an offense, a random referee can step in and isue a yellow/red/black card to the offending fencer. Can you provide the reference to the rulebook that clarifies this situation? IMHO, a referee's rulings (or lack of) should only be overruled by the BC and not by another referree. However, if the rulebook has a different view on this, then I'd love to re-read the section if you can point me at it.

Thanks.

I agree with Mark and Joe, with the following rules relevant (again, see prior post for more details).

t.81

The regulations laid down in this Part apply to all persons who take part in or attend a fencing competition, including the spectators. Hereinafter, all these persons are described as ‗fencers‘.

This definition of 'fencers' is relevant for the following rules.

t.96

(c) By reason of the right of jurisdiction which he has over all the fencers who participate in, or are present at a competition which he is refereeing, he can also propose to the Technical Directory the expulsion from the venue of the competition of the spectators, trainers, instructors and other persons who accompany the competitors (cf. t.114, t.118, t.120).

t.101 (last section)

The competent authorities at a competition - the referee and the Technical Directory, can apply all these penalties, except permanent suspension.

t. 118 (second half of rule)

Any person not on the strip who disturbs the order of the competition receives: — On the first infringement, a warning, indicated by a Yellow Card, valid for the whole of the competition, which must be noted on the bout score sheet and recorded by the Technical Directory;
— At the second infringement during the same competition a Black Card and/or expulsion from the competition venue.
In the most serious cases concerning disturbance either on or off the strip, the Referee may exclude or expel the person at fault immediately.

See my previous post for more details, but again, the referee for a given bout is the only person who may penalize for infractions that do not relate to disturbing order (covering target, corps a corps, etc). The rules prescribe (as above) that any referee may deem any person in the venue (including spectators, fencers, other officials, etc.) to be disturbing order, and subject them to warnings/explusion as outlined in t.118.

If a referee/bout committee member on another strip sees behavior that he deems to consitute disturbing order, he may penalize that fencer with a warning or with expulsion, depending on severity (for instance, the example of an obscene gesture not seen by the primary referee).

[Mac A. Bee]

I would love to see that letter or email that stated that was a reason for your demotion.

From: FOC Chair's Delegate
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 4:19 PM
At the recent FOC meeting...the decision was made to lower your foil and epee ratings...your demeanor and overall handling of the strip needed to be worked on. Try to limit the blacks cards for only the most egregious acts, avoid overly familiar banter with the fencers, and work on being more relaxed...

[Mac A. Bee]

...Black Carding some body for not shaking hands and then throwing their mask. Well, if I had been the referee I would have warned the fencer that not saluting your opponent at the end of the bout is a black card offense...and that may have diffused the throwing of the mask

During earlier pool bouts, I repeatedly asked the fencer to move out of the ref zone when not fencing. He was standing an arm's length to my side when I was about to restart a bout. I told him to move. He remained. I Group III Yellow-Carded him as a Person Not On-Strip Disturbing Order. That was before his final pool bout when he failed to salute his opponent after the final touch was scored against him.

[zéphirin]

The rules were different at that tournament.

It was made VERY clear that no fencing instruction on a day where an official worked was going to be permitted. The specific sanctions (first offense: no pay for the day; second offense: sent home from nationals) were provided in the announcement given to all referees. xxxx The activity in question was a lesson.

I went to the FOC who wrote and distributed the policy for clarification, and she told me to go do whatever the phoque I want after I'm released.

There are questions about what was or wasn't said individually, but the policy was clear, the questions in the general meeting that morning were clear, the answers were explicit. This really wasn't a gray area enforcement, regardless of what personal opinions about the policy might be, it was clearly applied as written.

As it turned out, the penalty was rescinded. He WAS paid for that day. And was told that the penalty was rescinded the very next day.

Wow... Is that the story they go by these days?

A bit of confusion in the recollection it seems... This can always happen but if/when it does an apology/correction should follow. My lawyer friend warns me, falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

Better check and recheck your "facts"

[MyrddinsPrecint]

So: for yelling which is not particularly unusual, many refs would feel that a card from another ref was overstepping the boundary.

I've heard stories about particularly egregious violations in which several refs all over the room pulled out black cards at roughly the same time.

But I'm guessing there's a line somewhere. So let's try and find the line: If the ref can see the behavior, and a judgement call is involved, let the ref do it (if at all possible). If the ref can't see the behavior and you can, what's best practice? To card immediately? To go talk to the ref? Does it depend on the behavior involved?

During earlier pool bouts, I repeatedly asked the fencer to move out of the ref zone when not fencing. He was standing an arm's length to my side when I was about to restart a bout. I told him to move. He remained. I Group III Yellow-Carded him as a Person Not On-Strip Disturbing Order. That was before his final pool bout when he failed to salute his opponent after the final touch was scored against him.

Look, I'm the last one to be judging people other than Mango (now lemonaide?) on thread drift. But you seem to have tried to drag the thread to your problems several times now, and people still actually want to discuss the thread topic and things tangentially involved to the thread topic, and your ability or non-ability as a ref, who thinks so, and why is not particularly on topic. Perhaps you might wish to start your own thread?

Alternatively: "Yo, Mauler, I'm really happy, and Imma let you finish, but I have one of the best 'wronged ref quits' stories of ALL TIME!" ..... Kanye, your own thread might be a more appropriate venue.

[EldRick]

I'd also be clinically retarded...

Your self-assessment is confirmed.

[mdstasinos]

So: for yelling which is not particularly unusual, many refs would feel that a card from another ref was overstepping the boundary.

I've heard stories about particularly egregious violations in which several refs all over the room pulled out black cards at roughly the same time.

But I'm guessing there's a line somewhere. So let's try and find the line: If the ref can see the behavior, and a judgement call is involved, let the ref do it (if at all possible). If the ref can't see the behavior and you can, what's best practice? To card immediately? To go talk to the ref? Does it depend on the behavior involved?

If a referee can't see the behavior and you can and the behavior is inappropriate, If the situation warrants it, I would speak to the other referee.
In one situation, in women's foil a number of years ago at the Portland NAC, The strip directly across from me had an extremely vocal and intense bout at the conclusion of the bout the two fencers saluted, step forward to shake hands, the referee turned to talk to one of the coaches and the losing fencer slapped the winner across the face. The other referee turned back because of the scream from the fencer who was slapped and the referee did nothing. I walked over and black carded the fencer at fault, gathered the other referee the two fencers and the BC. The other referee stated, "I could not card her because I did not see it happen." The fencer who was black carded de-neighed slapping her opponent, although the red hand mark on the other fencers face was defined. The BC did not even question the fact that I carded the fencer and it was necessary for the fact that the other referee did not see it therefore he was not going to act upon it.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association