The authority to card

[Mac A. Bee]

...Reffing was, at the time, his only job...the USFA lost their most dedicated refereePolicy about coaching when hired as a referee

I was in a similar position when I revealed that an exFOC appeared to be attempting to be using me to disenfranchise a club as a viable venue (he's associated with another club). Subsequently, my previous season's rating/promotion was demoted. Following a FOC's suggestion, I submited my body of work. The FOC didn't return my ratings requesting that I resubmit at this season's end. I resigned from the national cadre.

[epeemike81]

I was in a similar position when I revealed that an exFOC appeared to be attempting to be using me to disenfranchise a club as a viable venue (he's associated with another club). Subsequently, my previous season's rating/promotion was demoted. Following a FOC's suggestion, I submited my body of work. The FOC didn't return my ratings but requested that I resubmit at this season's end. I resigned from the national cadre.

Not to be too blunt, but... Have you considered that the demotion in ratings might not be due to politics, but rather due to an actual opinion of your ability? I'd note that such a demotion requires a vote of the full FOC at their annual meeting, while the initial promotion was performed unilaterally by a single member of the FOC.

-m

[Mauler]

There are questions about what was or wasn't said individually, but the policy was clear, the questions in the general meeting that morning were clear, the answers were explicit. This really wasn't a gray area enforcement, regardless of what personal opinions about the policy might be, it was clearly applied as written.

I went to the FOC who wrote and distributed the policy for clarification, and she told me to go do whatever the phoque I want after I'm released.

As it turned out, the penalty was rescinded. He WAS paid for that day. And was told that the penalty was rescinded the very next day.

-B

Wow... Is that the story they go by these days?

[EldRick]

Whatever happened to good manners and self-control?

Allowing this sort of inappropriate demonstrative behavior by children (or adults) seriously diminishes the sport, IMHO.

If my kid screamed like an animal, like some of the juvenile fencers I saw at Portland NAC, I'd stop subsidizing its fencing.

[telkanuru]

Whatever happened to good manners and self-control?

Allowing this sort of inappropriate demonstrative behavior by children (or adults) seriously diminishes the sport, IMHO.

If my kid screamed like an animal, like some of the juvenile fencers I saw at Portland NAC, I'd stop subsidizing its fencing.

Good thing I'm not your kid then, I guess.

Get over it.

[Mac A. Bee]

... Have you considered that the demotion in ratings might not be due to politics...

The reasons given were areas I received NAC Observations 4s and 5s/5.

[epeemike81]

The reasons given were areas I received NAC Observations 4s and 5s/5.

what does that even mean?

-m

[Mac A. Bee]

what does that even mean?

For those that this is relevant, understand.

[epeemike81]

For those that this is relevant, understand.

Well, you were responding to me, so I'd think I WAS relevant.

Regardless, though, I doubt ANYBODY understood that nonsensical statement.

-m

[bigdawg2121]

For those that this is relevant, understand.

Are you sure about that?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Whatever happened to good manners and self-control?

Allowing this sort of inappropriate demonstrative behavior by children (or adults) seriously diminishes the sport, IMHO.

If my kid screamed like an animal, like some of the juvenile fencers I saw at Portland NAC, I'd stop subsidizing its fencing.

Good thing I'm not your kid then, I guess.

Get over it.

Making fun of/personally judging an individual for a truly dumb/annoying/high pitched/headache causing yell is valid. Then again, many people here make fun of or judge fencers for any number of other things that aren't against the rules- wearing very good gear, wearing very bad gear, wearing colored socks, crying in public, not crying in public, and on and on and on.

Depending on the individual, depending on the sounds being uttered, I can understand a parent or coach telling their fencer that they really need to find a different way of personal expression.

But that DOESN'T mean that the ref ought to be carding them necessarily.

For those that this is relevant, understand.

Hello, Snotty McSnotterpants. Why don't you make your own thread for people who are relevant.

Regardless, though, I doubt ANYBODY understood that nonsensical statement.

I'm assuming he's trying to refer to "people in the know", and you're far more likely to be in that category than I am, but I'm also guessing that he's missing some words at the very least.

[telkanuru]

For those that this is relevant, understand.

Do the people for whom this is relevant also have an extraordinarily weak grasp on the English language?

[Dev]

what does that even mean?

-m

I think he's trying to say that when he was demoted, the areas the FOC board cited as weaknesses were areas in which he'd previously received high marks (4/5, 5/5) on one of those Referee Evaluation Forms when observed at NACs.

Which invalidates nothing that you said earlier, of course; those scores are still the actions of a single FOC observer.

[EldRick]

Good thing I'm not your kid then, I guess.

That makes two of us. If you were, you'd have better manners.

[telkanuru]

I'd also be clinically retarded, so I think I came out on top.

[Mac A. Bee]

I think he's trying to say that when he was demoted, the areas the FOC board cited as weaknesses were areas in which he'd previously received high marks (4/5, 5/5) on one of those Referee Evaluation Forms when observed at NACs... those scores are still the actions of a single FOC observer.

Almost right. Three evaluations by three observers at the previous season's three NACs.

[counterattack]

Whatever happened to good manners and self-control?

Allowing this sort of inappropriate demonstrative behavior by children (or adults) seriously diminishes the sport, IMHO.

If my kid screamed like an animal, like some of the juvenile fencers I saw at Portland NAC, I'd stop subsidizing its fencing.

You know, screaming happens. Sometimes I think it is over the top, but whatever. Do I think a winning fencer ought to lose because of it? Sounds like bad attitude sour grapes poor sportsmanship to me to wish that. If the officials wish to decrease the screaming they can issue an edict to that effect and let everyone know they are cracking down in no uncertain terms. Otherwise, I feel the refs had better stay away from cards for all but the most in-your-face-taunt of screams, because experience would teach a fencer they are allowed to. I personally don't scream. The only times I have been warned have been for muttering profanely at myself for something stupid I did. But if screaming works for you, do it. I should say though, that I encourage everybody to find the balance between "works for you" and "really? after every point in the pool you need to do that?". And I encourage people who are really angry about screaming to take up knitting instead. Or if you really hate it, perhaps scuba diving.

-philip

[AkiraRagnas]

I'd also be clinically retarded, so I think I came out on top.

Er... aren't we pushing the boundaries of civility here a bit?

[erooMynohtnA]

The real question is if he had said that on another ref's strip would you have carded him?

[mdstasinos]

Not to be too blunt, but... Have you considered that the demotion in ratings might not be due to politics, but rather due to an actual opinion of your ability? I'd note that such a demotion requires a vote of the full FOC at their annual meeting, while the initial promotion was performed unilaterally by a single member of the FOC.

-m

The demotion was not due to politics, there were very strong examples of not refereeing at the level that he was currently at. The demotions, to correct the statement above, did not require the entire FOC vote in favor of the Demotion. It required at least 4 votes for the demotion, against less than four votes opposing the demotion. Again, whoever was spoken to about submitting for reestablishing a dropped rating was incorrect. The evaluations we look at for the advancement of ratings for 5 and above at the FOC meeting are compiled form the NAC's And the National Championships, not local or sectional tournaments. Any FOC or designated representative that has been given the authority by the FOC to do so, can award a rating anywhere from a 9 to a 5 at tournaments where the strength of the competition allows this to happen and the individual can be observed refereeing at that higher level.
Because Rick did not fully understand this and he submitted all his local events and letters of endorsement saying they liked him and he was a good referee and therefore wished to have his old ratings reestablished. I am not siding with this but this not complied independently, it was compiled only by Rick for Rick. That is why we have observers and designated representatives that do this to assure individuals do not, in a sense, advance themselves.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association