The authority to card

[flechewounds]

I learned how to fence sabre in the 80s yelling was part of the game
I do ask that they yell away from their opponents, but that is so that things don't escalate.
Sounds like you handled it fine.

agreed

[fdad]

With shared ref space I can understand it more.

This was an example of a boy that had a *rather* loud and high pitched scream. It was pretty annoying to listen to. But ABSOLUTELY legal.

At SN my kid got carded (deservedly so, in my opinion) because of a scream celebrating a touch without turning away from the opponent (aka in the face of).

If instead a fencer turns towards an adjacent strip before screaming, it might disturb fencers in THAT bout. While I think the referee of that bout might be able to card someone for disturbing order, I think the problem would be solved by simply asking the fencer to keep it down. I don't think a referee can card anyone for disturbing order of a bout that they are not presiding over, can they?

Since

[telkanuru]

So basically some guy has a stick up his ass, and needs to *be* yelled at.

[Fiat Slug]

There wasn't a bout going on on the adjacent strip, as it was during a 10 minute break. The referee said "do you want to card them, or should I?" I responded by saying "They're fine. I'm not going to card them."

Wow! So a ref can card someone else's bout? Does this ref believe he can call the action in your bout, too?

Ref: "Attack left. Touch left."
A nearby ref: "No, Attack right. Touch right."
Another nearby ref: "No, no, no. Yellow card left for distracting the opponent."
First Ref (to the other two refs): "I'm going to red card both of you for disturbing the bout."
Second Ref (to first ref): "I'm going to black card you. Now I can take over your bout since you obviously do not know how to direct."
Third Ref: "I'm going to black card myself so I can go home early."

[notalent]

At SN my kid got carded (deservedly so, in my opinion) because of a scream celebrating a touch without turning away from the opponent (aka in the face of).

If instead a fencer turns towards an adjacent strip before screaming, it might disturb fencers in THAT bout. While I think the referee of that bout might be able to card someone for disturbing order, I think the problem would be solved by simply asking the fencer to keep it down. I don't think a referee can card anyone for disturbing order of a bout that they are not presiding over, can they?

Since

I generally ask that they turn away from their opponent first, as such I rarely actually have to card. Though I hadn't really considered any repercussions beyond ny strip.

[Wetmelon]

Third Ref: "I'm going to black card myself so I can go home early."

.lol.

[epeemike81]

To those of the opinion that the ref on the adjacent strip should not award a penalty, do you think it would be unprofessional for that referee to inform, in a courteous manner, the presiding referee to the fact that their fencer's boisterous and prolonged screams are disturbing order on the adjacent strip, and ask that they not allow such behavior?

Assuming it's done discretely, that would be fine, but I wouldn't expect the referee in question to agree... If they did, they would have already carded the fencer.

-m

[epeemike81]

Wow! So a ref can card someone else's bout? Does this ref believe he can call the action in your bout, too?

As noted, no, they cannot issue a card IN someone else's bout. They can issue a spectator warning to anybody, though, including an active fencer on another strip.

They shouldn't, but they can.

-m

[BrodeurNJD30]

I have seen this happen before where the fencer on strip 1 actions are so distracting/obnoxious/innappropriate whatever word you want to use where both fencers on strip 2 in midaction stop fencing thinking something horrible just happened.

[VorpalCat]

I have seen this happen before where the fencer on strip 1 actions are so distracting/obnoxious/innappropriate whatever word you want to use where both fencers on strip 2 in midaction stop fencing thinking something horrible just happened.

This happened in foil DEs at last year's Hangover in VA with the small difference that the fencers stopped simply because they couldn't hear the ref or even focus on their bout due to the raging hissy fit being pitched on the adjacent strip. (I still don't understand why that nonsense wasn't carded but then, tantrums are one of my hot buttons.)

[Purple Fencer]

This happened in foil DEs at last year's Hangover in VA with the small difference that the fencers stopped simply because they couldn't hear the ref or even focus on their bout due to the raging hissy fit being pitched on the adjacent strip. (I still don't understand why that nonsense wasn't carded but then, tantrums are one of my hot buttons.)

That raises a question....if a ref cards a fencer on another strip (say, a yellow for disturbing order), how does that card affect that fencer? If the fencer already has a yellow, does the card from the other result in an overall red card and point against?

I could see this in a really bad situation like a mask throw...

[Allen Evans]

A card for a spectator disturbing order doesn't effect the bout. But suppose the fencer shrugs it off, continues to disturb order as a spectator and gets a black card as a spectator from some over zealous ref? (I can think of one or two that would push this envelope)

Frankly, I'd like to see the rule that gives a referee the right to card a fencer on another strip during an on-going bout (though everyone seems to say it's allowed)--I'll have to do some careful reading of the rule book later.

*grrrr* If that ever was done to me when *I* was refereeing, I know what the next card thrown would be!

[epeemike81]

Frankly, I'd like to see the rule that gives a referee the right to card a fencer on another strip during an on-going bout (though everyone seems to say it's allowed)--I'll have to do some careful reading of the rule book later.

Ask, and you shall receive:

t.108 All participants or non-competitors who participate in or are present at a competition (instructors, trainers, technicians, supporters, officials, spectators) may be expelled. Such expulsion has the effect of forbidding them access to the venue for the duration of the competition or tournament (cf. t.120).

In no circumstances can the imposition of this penalty give cause for redress to anyone.
...
t.118...Any person not on the strip who disturbs the order of the competition receives: — On the first infringement, a warning, indicated by a Yellow Card, valid for the whole of the competition, which must be noted on the bout score sheet and recorded by the Technical Directory;
— At the second infringement during the same competition a Black Card and/or expulsion from the competition venue.
In the most serious cases concerning disturbance either on or off the strip, the Referee may exclude or expel the person at fault immediately.

note that in the case of t.118, "not on the strip" indicates not on the strip that the referee is presiding over.

-m

[Philistine]

Assuming it's done discretely, that would be fine, but I wouldn't expect the referee in question to agree... If they did, they would have already carded the fencer.

Would you think it unreasonable for the referee of the loud fencer not to ask the loud fencer to quiet down because he was disturbing other bouts when asked by the other ref?

I could see that kind of situation escalating between referees and culminating in a card thrown by the other ref.

--Philistine

[epeemike81]

Would you think it unreasonable for the referee of the loud fencer [i\]not[/i] to ask the loud fencer to quiet down because he was disturbing other bouts when asked by the other ref?

I could see that kind of situation escalating between referees and culminating in a card thrown by the other ref.

--Philistine

Speaking as a ref who would probably decline to throw that card, yes I think it's reasonable. not everybody sees eye to eye on what is or is not disturbing order and it is the presiding referee's judgement that matters.

The other referee should practice some tolerance.

-m

[Allen Evans]

Ask, and you shall receive:
note that in the case of t.118, "not on the strip" indicates not on the strip that the referee is presiding over.

Thanks for this, but...

Where is that clarification made clear? That's never how I read that rule. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly?) that the phrase "not on the strip' was to differentiate the penalties between a "spectator" and a "fencer".

Your interpretation could be broadened to say that "anyone *I* am not refereeing right now is a spectator", and that's just silly.

[epeemike81]

Thanks for this, but...

Where is that clarification made clear? That's never how I read that rule. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly?) that the phrase "not on the strip' was to differentiate the penalties between a "spectator" and a "fencer".

Your interpretation could be broadened to say that "anyone *I* am not refereeing right now is a spectator", and that's just silly.

If they meant nobody on A strip, they would have said so. They very clearly said nobody on THE strip, indicating this specific one.

And you misunderstand. That is EXACTLY what I am saying. Anybody I am not refereeing right now (defined as the fencers on strip in DEs or all members of a pool) is (in terms of their relationship to me) defined by the rules to be a spectator.

-m

[Allen Evans]

I'll defer to your interpretation, but I think you're giving a lot of credit for proper use of determiners in a document not known for great grammer.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Would you think it unreasonable for the referee of the loud fencer not to ask the loud fencer to quiet down because he was disturbing other bouts when asked by the other ref?

I could see that kind of situation escalating between referees and culminating in a card thrown by the other ref.

--Philistine

There is a step between "ignoring" and "carding". A skeptical look with a small comment along the lines of "I think others may soon find you distracting" may be enough to get the fencer to tone down the behavior. If you personally don't think it's card-worthy, it may still be obnoxious, and the best way to act responsibly toward both the fencers in the bout and the other fencers and refs in the room might be something small....

I'll defer to your interpretation, but I think you're giving a lot of credit for proper use of determiners in a document not known for great grammer.

But then what IS the definition of a spectator?

[Superscribe]

The biggest problem here is setting an unfortunate precedent. According to the rules, ref's can black card another ref. That wouldn't be likely, but ref's having a habit of operating out of their "jurisdiction" is one step closer to what would otherwise be a bit of a Mexican stand off.