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Crash55 · 10-21-2002, 06:52 PM

I would like to know what the current interpretation is of the difference between these two situations. Locally I have seen yellow cards for jostling being given out if the ref thought the offender could have stopped no matter how severe the contact. Though others have told me it shouldn't be called as jostliing unless someone gets knocked down. I think lies between these two but I would liek some more concrete proof before arguing with the people taking the first approach. I would especially like to hear from anyone who can say how it was called at the recent NAC.

epeemike81 · 10-21-2002, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crash55
I would like to know what the current interpretation is of the difference between these two situations. Locally I have seen yellow cards for jostling being given out if the ref thought the offender could have stopped no matter how severe the contact. Though others have told me it shouldn't be called as jostliing unless someone gets knocked down. I think lies between these two but I would liek some more concrete proof before arguing with the people taking the first approach. I would especially like to hear from anyone who can say how it was called at the recent NAC.

Neither of these would be adequate. If I am fencing epee and I make no attempt to avoid corps a corps, that does not make it jostling. The issue is not an attempt to avoid, but rather the extent and level of contact. After all, corps a corps is not an offense in epee. by a similar token, you can commit jostling without intent.

On the other hand, you certainly can jostle without knocking somebody down. I have frequently heard the definition of knocking somebody down. I don't like it for two reasons:
1. People take dives

2. I am a big guy, and I keep a relatively wide (i.e. stable) en garde. it would take solidly group III brutality to knock me down. Should my opponents be allowed more leeway because of that??? I think not.

-m

swordsen · 10-21-2002, 09:32 PM

The other problem of course with the knocking down theory is often a smaller fencer will slam intoi a larger fencer and will knock himself down. Probably still a penalty but not on the man standing.

Generally I call jostling if I believe that the contact was severe enough to warrent it. totally subjective I know but that is the case in so many rules in this game.
If I had to clarify that I would say that if you run into someone hard enough to move them (or yourself as above) expect a card.....

DJ Apostrophe · 10-21-2002, 11:50 PM

it is definetly NOT running into the opponent when you could have stopped... the rule book specifically says that fleche attacks in epee can be finished by systematically running into the opponent (not sure the exact verbeage, but thats the jist of it), and I dont have the book with me so I cant give you an article...

edew · 10-22-2002, 02:50 AM

It is totally subjective. Heck, you can whip out a black card immediately if you felt that the corps a corps is so severe as to warrant it. This is one of several that really gives the referee all the control in determining the appropriate penalty (if any).

Chris Aher · 10-22-2002, 08:42 AM

A few years back at the North Atlantic Sectionals, Taro Yama****a misjudged a fleche against Justin Meehan (obvoiusly unintentionally!). He slammed headlong into him and basically collasped at his feet. It was an amusing moment when the Ref leaned over and (correctly IMO) handed Taro the yellowcard for jostling.

DJ Apostrophe · 10-22-2002, 09:14 AM

Thats Justin for you... another year at sectionals he was fencing Paul Rubin... Rubin fleched, Justin 'adjusted' and ...oops... his shoulder was right in Paul's way... Paul bounced off Justin and apparently flew about 8 feet across the room... not sure if anyone was carded. I've only heard the story.

epeemike81 · 10-22-2002, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DJ Apostrophe
Thats Justin for you... another year at sectionals he was fencing Paul Rubin... Rubin fleched, Justin 'adjusted' and ...oops... his shoulder was right in Paul's way... Paul bounced off Justin and apparently flew about 8 feet across the room... not sure if anyone was carded. I've only heard the story.

You are mixing TWO stories you have heard. The first is that Brad Baker was fleching and was going to go past when, as he put it, "a shoulder appeared in front of [him] and filled [his] full field of vision". Not sure any cards were given at that time.

The second story is that Paul Rubin fleched, Justin took a prime, and a hip check. Paul, as a result of this hip check, landed on top of a toolbox eight feet off the strip. Justin looked at the ref, and said "Sir? Jostling?" And the ref actually gave Paul a card for Jostling!!!!

-m

DJ Apostrophe · 10-22-2002, 10:33 AM

Hehe... ok... my bad... guess the moral is... dont fleche on justin

epeemike81 · 10-22-2002, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Aher
A few years back at the North Atlantic Sectionals, Taro Yama****a misjudged a fleche against Justin Meehan (obvoiusly unintentionally!). He slammed headlong into him and basically collasped at his feet. It was an amusing moment when the Ref leaned over and (correctly IMO) handed Taro the yellowcard for jostling.

The part of this story which Chris is leaving out is that the Jostling card was not drawn by the action, but by the dive which Justin took. Taro fleched, bounced off, landed on his butt. about a full half second later, Justin fell. As one spectator put it, "I thought he had torn an ACL or something. It was clear the fall had nothing to do with Taro." Another epeeist is quoted as saying that he was Jockying, but found that he wasn't jockying suddenly, because when Justin fell, the floor started moving with him.

I wasn't there, so I can't say if Taro deserved a card, but it does bother me that the card was given due to a dive.

Interesting story from Orlando: One of the epeeists basically jostled himself. He took in six, took it way wide across his opponents body, fleched, and on his followthrough went off to that side. predictably enough, his neck collided with the arm he had pulled across his opponents body, and he clotheslined himself and ended up on the floor.

There are some great stories around....

-m

epeemike81 · 10-22-2002, 10:49 AM

I have been enlisted to publish a press release for Mr. Yama****a

:
I fenced Justin in the semi finals of the 2000 North Atlantic sectional championships. Early in the bout, I jostled him. I already had a yellow card (weapon), so that jostling got me a red card. Later in the bout, I screwed up on a fleche attack, and I ran into him again, hard.

I didn't actually fall down, but the next thing I knew, I was standing over a prone Justin. Did he take a dive? Only Justin knows for sure. I (correctly) received the red card. Indeed, if I had hit someone my own size that hard, I probably would have been black carded for brutality.

As for the general topic of when simple corps a corps becomes jostling, that is purely a judgement call by the referee.

Usually if you jostle your opponent, you know, and your opponent knows. If the referee doesn't give the card, then you can expect your opponent to deal out a little extra "justice" on the
next touch.

-Taro Yama****a

-m

Chris Aher · 10-22-2002, 02:02 PM

Hi Mike,

We all know Justin's antics. :D NOBODY would believe that Taro could knock Justin down. Maybe you and I together, could. ;)

Note to folks that have never met any of the players: Taro is of medium build, Mike is a big guy, I'm even bigger and Justin is the Jolly Green Giant. :D Taro went on to win the bout and the Tournament.

Seriously, I was there and Justin went down well after the halt and was performing his usual theatrics and ballbusting, IMO. The ref (Ron Wangner) wasn't fooled in the least.

As far as Taro getting a black card for brutality, it certainly wasn't warrented either. As he said, he screwed up a fleche. It happens. Its part of the game.

BTW, I fenced Justin in a tournament at FCLI last Sunday. All eight touches (5 for him and 3 for me) were wrist touches. A very delicate bout for two large, aggressive guys! :)

Hope to see all you folks from UMASS on Sunday at Candlewood!

Chris

Manjusri · 11-12-2002, 03:05 PM

My take is that if the fencer causing the corps-a-corps:
- moves the opponent from his stance (a few involuntary steps)
- causes danger of injury, or
- appears to be deliberately inflicting corps-a-corps to gain an unfair advantage through intimidation
then calling it is necessary to keep control of the bout. If its borderline sometimes an unofficial warning will suffice.

At circuits it all depends on the director, but I have observed that the womens competition tends to be called a lot stricter than the men's.

countertime · 11-19-2002, 06:34 PM

Related to this, let's take two scenarios that are identical except that in scenario 1 a touch is scored and scenario 2 where no touch arrives:

1, Lets say fencer A launches an fleche attack, hits fencer B on the wrist and proccedes to knock down fencer B.

2, same as above but no touch arrives.

In Scenario 2 it seems clear that, if the director deemed appropriate, a yellow card could be issued to fencer A. My question would be: Would the touch and halt previous to the knockdown(in sit. 1), prevent any yellow card or annulment of A's touch? or would it be considered "uncontroled fencing"(or whatever they call it), allowing A to be punished?

confused...as usual

edew · 11-20-2002, 02:12 PM

A simple corps a corps in foil or sabre earns the guilty party a yellow card, but does not annul any touches scored by the fencer at fault.

A corps a corps (in all three weapons) which was performed to avoid a touch, while also scoring a touch will have that touch annulled.

That is, if A closed distance to avoid being scored upon, AND scores a touch as well, AND in closing distance, causes a corps a corps, then A will receive a yellow card and A's touch will be annulled as well.

Jostling, disorderly fencing and the like in all three weapons will also annul any touch scored by the fencer at fault.

Hunt down the USFA Penalty chart pdf. At the bottom of the chart explains when a penalty will also annul the touch scored by the fencer at fault (i.e., those penalties with an asterisk next to them).

You know, the penalties chart now is much easier to deal with than long ago before cards. Then, each infraction had to be occur twice before a touch is awarded. You can do one corps a corps, then a covering target, then a falling down, then a ***** and moan, then delaying tactic, then ... and that still won't give your opponent any benefits. Now, all penalties are cumulative. Much nicer.