French grip epeeists: Offense

[épéesandcellos]

I was just curious as to what strategies other French grip epeeists use when it comes to offense.

Because of less power with the French when fencing pistol grip users (even when choking up on the grip), I tend to stray away from blade contact and try arm/wrist picks and such. But I think I need some more variation, so I try to take the blade with parrying/circular parrying-- but as I engage the blade I suddenly feel overpowered and end up darting mine back the other way and going for the target, which is turning out be unreliable...

Any advice at all for a French grip user who fences nothing but pistol grips would be appreciated, thanks.

[piste off]

I was just curious as to what strategies other French grip epeeists use when it comes to offense.

Because of less power with the French when fencing pistol grip users (even when choking up on the grip), I tend to stray away from blade contact and try arm/wrist picks and such. But I think I need some more variation, so I try to take the blade with parrying/circular parrying-- but as I engage the blade I suddenly feel overpowered and end up darting mine back the other way and going for the target, which is turning out be unreliable...

Any advice at all for a French grip user who fences nothing but pistol grips would be appreciated, thanks.

Try working on beats, pris de fers and disengages.

R-

[griffindm]

With the added reach of pommeling, the foot and thigh are very much in play for offense with the french grip.

[Allen Evans]

A French grip epee has a host of actions available to it on the offense, but some of them must be performed slightly differently than the same action using a pistol grip. It could be that you're doing the right action when taking the blade, but doing it the incorrect way. Because the French grip is sensitive to leverage and certain angles, the user must chose (or make) the opportunities to score with a blade take with care.

And of couse, the French grip user has the advantage when making some second intention actions, such as a false take to provoke a "roll off" in order to score with a counter-attack. These same opportunities are available to a pistol grip user, but more readlily lend themselves to a French grip.

What does your coach say?

[Craig]

Go to Universal Sports and look for any replays of the team epee final. There are a lot of examples of how french-grip epeeists score touches, both on outright offense and on counter-attacks by provoking the attack at the right time.

Craig

[Gav]

I thought I had typed a reply earlier... but must have forgotten to hit submit.

Like Craig I think you should be watching some high level Epee. There's plenty of good advice out there.

One piece I will give you. In my experience the good french grip epeeists are never still. If anything it requires more work.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with your basic strategy but if you want to add a bit of depth I would avoid taking the blade - unless you are freakish strong or you are in a far superior position with regards to leverage. With your picks at the hand/ wrist you are in a position to slip off and do something else; fleche to body, lunge to knee depending on what your opponent is doing. The key seems to be catching them on their dead time and hitting them when they are committed and open to you.

[ivlobane]

oi, please don't lunge exactly to the knee, right above it, or to the foot is just as useful and will ensure you remain friends with your opponent off the strip.

Otherwise, Craig gave you the best advice. I'm really loving Grumier's fencing and he doesn't seem to be as much of an ass as Fabrice Jeannet. It's rather funny to see the French "Kolobkofy" their style, though I admit I love the result.

[RITFencing]

Learn to adjust your grip. I know almost nobody with a french does this, but it strikes me as foolish. One of the big strengths of a french grip is versatility. Learn to fence choked up on it for stronger blade actions and further down when you want to sacrifice reach for power.

[Allen Evans]

Learn to adjust your grip. I know almost nobody with a french does this, but it strikes me as foolish.

Actually, if I remember from watching Mazzone at the NAC's, he does this quite often, shifting between pommeling and "choking" up on the grip.

[ivlobane]

Luigi Mazzone is a pretty unique animal even for Italians... to copy that without his technical and athletic fundamentals would be a giant mistake.

[oiuyt]

Actually, if I remember from watching Mazzone at the NAC's, he does this quite often, shifting between pommeling and "choking" up on the grip.

For those that haven't seen it, by "pretty often" Allen means "constantly throughout nearly every touch".

I've seen that factor alone throw opponents off of their game, as they get so concerned and worked up over the constant fiddling that's going on during the preparations that they appear to stop thinking about what else is going on. Especially true with the opponents who have been (incorrectly) trained that it's not legal to shift the position of the hand on the grip during the course of a touch.

-B

[Allen Evans]

...have been (incorrectly) trained that it's not legal to shift the position of the hand on the grip during the course of a touch.

I might rephrase that sentence to read "...(incorrect) trained that it's not legal to shift the position of the hand on the grip during the course of a phrase." to avoid any confusion with the illegality of shifting position on the handle during the course of making an offensive action (ie, "throwing" the weapon).

But yeah, it's almost as if he finds the handle hot to the touch, he shifts it around so much. But it appears to be very effective for him!

[Stormbringer]

For those that haven't seen it, by "pretty often" Allen means "constantly throughout nearly every touch".

I've seen that factor alone throw opponents off of their game, as they get so concerned and worked up over the constant fiddling that's going on during the preparations that they appear to stop thinking about what else is going on. Especially true with the opponents who have been (incorrectly) trained that it's not legal to shift the position of the hand on the grip during the course of a touch.

-B

Reading the bolded part of the above statement (specifically, the phrase "during the course of a touch") gave me pause...

From t.16:

If the handle has no special device or attachment or special shape (e.g. orthopaedic), a fencer may hold it in any way he wishes and he may also alter the position of his hand on the handle during a bout. However, the weapon must not be — either permanently or temporarily, in an open or disguised manner — transformed into a throwing weapon; it must be used without the hand leaving the hilt and without the hand slipping along the hilt from front to back during an offensive action.

Just so we're clear - it's still illegal to shift the position of the grip in the hand (specifically, shifting from a forward position to pommeling/posting) during the execution of an offensive action (attack/counter-attack/riposte/counter-riposte/etc.), while - provided one is not using an orthopedic grip - it's wholly legal at any other time.

I assume that's what you meant, Oiuyt?


EDIT: Curse my slow-ish typing and error-checking...

[telkanuru]

No. It's illegal to shift the weapon *forward* in the final execution of a hit.

Learning to shift the hand is a very good skill. Gav is also right with respect to movement. Working on your feet will pay far larger dividends than anything else, especially early on.

[Downtown]

When I use to fence french grip (epee), I found that if fenced for a couple of touches using a grip (thumb close to the bell) and then switched to pommeling
after my opponent found his distance it sometimes was an aid in getting a few touches.

It depends on how good you are and the level of your opponent.

[counterattack]

Learn to adjust your grip. I know almost nobody with a french does this, but it strikes me as foolish. One of the big strengths of a french grip is versatility. Learn to fence choked up on it for stronger blade actions and further down when you want to sacrifice reach for power.

When I read this I thought "he is obviously not watching Mazzone." But then I see everybody else had the same thought. I also agree with ivoblane, don't try it it at home until you are technically proficient. He can do this because, among other things, his feet do the right thing on their own so he doesn't have to spare the thought for them. At one year of experience I'd say work on your footwork. If you are really being snappy with your bag leg on your short lunge you'll be surprised how quickly you can get from your favorite wrist target to the thigh. And it shouldn't involve any additional arm motion, just the fingers dropping your point. If you are doing this right you ought to be able to beat every U and E in the country. Add a feint-to-the-wrist-fleche-to-the-chest attack and that ought to get you all the way to an A in epee =) Like Gav said, you need to keep moving, your footwork needs to be varied (you ought to have preps and feints from small, medium, and long distance) and it needs to be tight, and you need the stamina to do it correctly for 9 minutes.

-philip

[oiuyt]

I might rephrase that sentence to read "...(incorrect) trained that it's not legal to shift the position of the hand on the grip during the course of a phrase." to avoid any confusion with the illegality of shifting position on the handle during the course of making an offensive action (ie, "throwing" the weapon).

I assume that's what you meant, Oiyut?

I considered rewording, including specifically the possibility of using "within a phrase" instead of "within a touch". I was undecided on whether that would increase or decrease the amount of confusion. In the end something else came up so I just hit the submit button with the text as written, rather than continue to play with alternatives.

By "within a touch" in my previous post I intended to refer to the time between "Fence" and "Halt!" There are a number of people who have been incorrectly taught that between those two commands a fencer may not change his or her grip placement on the weapon. When an opponent has been "taught" that a fencer such a Mazzone is even more likely to cause a mental meltdown.

-B

[telkanuru]

In fairness, if you didn't know you could shift your hand on a French grip, you're probably not at a level that would cause him much worry anyway.

[RITFencing]

I've seen Mazzone do it, and also EpeeLion. This is why I said ALMOST nobody.

[telkanuru]

You might have seen me do it too

(They do it better)