French grip in epee

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Stop trying to use physics, and start referencing your experience. I must admit I certainly HAVE used a beat, disengage hit before, but that has to do with the fact that my opponent parried every time I beat in four. Were I to try to do this against somebody who DIDN't auto-parry, I would find myself on the outside of a very closed guard.

I am merely using physics here to explain what I see by experience. When I see someone with a wide open target, most of the time, I will not hit the open target, rather take advantage of the fact that this person has a wide guard and use a feint disengage around the blade.

I use pretty frequently the beat-disengage thing, even on people who do not auto-parry, though on people who do auto-parry it's easier. It's all a matter of doing it at the right time, distance, and setting things up.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
I never said there wasn't a tradeoff, as a matter of fact, on several of my previous posts in similar threads, I was saying that exactly.

However, the tradeoff is not where it seems you think it is (no blade actions possible).

Yet again you put words in my mouths. once AGAIN, I said it WEAKENS your blade actions, not makes them impossible.

I feel that the tradeoff is mostly on the sides of that a French grip requires more work than a pistol to have a decent blade game. This could explain the high number bad fencers using French grips, though I haven't been to a competition where there was an outstanding number of bad French grip users.

Do you see the inherrent arrogance in this position? your position seems still to be that French is ultimately better, but you have to put more work in to make it such. I disagree with this, as I am sure the high level pistol users would too.

My signature change was just meant to stir up some controversy, not create a war as torn up as East Timor ;-).

hehe.....

Yet ANOTHER place which is more "war torn" than Northern Ireland.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
I am merely using physics here to explain what I see by experience. When I see someone with a wide open target, most of the time, I will not hit the open target, rather take advantage of the fact that this person has a wide guard and use a feint disengage around the blade.

This is NOT what you were saying, AND it has nothing to do with equal and opposite reactions. Feint, disengage has to do with outsmarting your opponent, pure and simple. what you suggested was that you would beat my blade and disengage around, and some reactive force would magically make my blade move and open my other side. THAT is clearly wrong, THIS is clearly irrelevant, as it is just as useful no matter which grip each fencer is using.

I use pretty frequently the beat-disengage thing, even on people who do not auto-parry, though on people who do auto-parry it's easier. It's all a matter of doing it at the right time, distance, and setting things up.

I don't care what distance you are at, if they don't parry, you will find yourself on the outside of their guard.

-m

[epeemike81]

A friend of mine, lets call him Epee Freak, had a great reaction to Veeco's last post which I just HAD to post:

Originally said by Epee Freak
no, you feint NEAR my blade, physics means there's a gravitational pull in that direction.... I disengage while all the potential energy stored by your pistol grip whips your hand in that direction hard enough that it almost detaches from your wrist... now don't you wish you'd taken my advice and used a french? or at least an italian? :-)

I hope you all realize this is tongue in cheek......

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Yet again you put words in my mouths. once AGAIN, I said it WEAKENS your blade actions, not makes them impossible.

Which is why you need to work harder on blade actions.

Do you see the inherrent arrogance in this position? your position seems still to be that French is ultimately better, but you have to put more work in to make it such. I disagree with this, as I am sure the high level pistol users would too.

I don't see the arrogance about it. All I'm saying is that it is easier to develop some kind of an absence of blade game, with a pistol grip, than it is to develop a game based on blade actions with a French. Basically, what I am saying is that to get the best of both worlds, a French grip user will have to work harder. They will get better point control than _MOST_ pistol grip users easier, better absence of blade game than _MOST_ pistol grip users easier, yet it will be harder to develop a blade contact game.

However, blade contact game is principally based on strength, I think so if they can work hard, they can get that extra strength that allows them to compete on blade actions, while the pistol grip users will have to overcome some tougher hurdles when developing a game based on absence of blade that is as good as the one from a French grip user.

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
This is NOT what you were saying, AND it has nothing to do with equal and opposite reactions. Feint, disengage has to do with outsmarting your opponent, pure and simple. what you suggested was that you would beat my blade and disengage around, and some reactive force would magically make my blade move and open my other side. THAT is clearly wrong, THIS is clearly irrelevant, as it is just as useful no matter which grip each fencer is using.

I was just using this situation as an example. In this case, instead of a beat you feint, and that creates the same reaction from the other fencer than if you had made a beat.
For me, as a French grip user, a feint or a beat serve the same purpose: to make the other guy react and think they are under attack on this side, thus making them cover that side. As a pistol grip user, your beat serves a different purpose: to be strong enough to deflect the other guys' blade.

I don't care what distance you are at, if they don't parry, you will find yourself on the outside of their guard.

A pistol grip (or French grip) user won't parry a beat, they will answer it. A vast majority of the people who use pistol that I have fenced will answer a beat by trying to oppose it in the opposite direction, thus the disengage. That's where physics are useless and psychology comes into play ;-).

[edew]

Veeco sigs:
To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial

Is that what Napoleon said when he visited the pyramids of Egypt during is sweep through the southern mediterranean lands?

(It's supposed to be a pun...)

[veeco]

I thought that was what he had said on his death bed in Elba... ;-)

[damianip]

OK, that's enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Epeemike81, Veeco, choose a time and place to settle this matter once and for all (NAC, Nationals,whatever).

Just let me know when and where. I want to see this.

Paolo

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by damianip
OK, that's enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Epeemike81, Veeco, choose a time and place to settle this matter once and for all (NAC, Nationals,whatever).

Just let me know when and where. I want to see this.

Paolo

Settle it how???

I don't know enough about Veeco to POSSIBLY suggest that I could beat him. In addition, one of us beating the other has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
I was just using this situation as an example. In this case, instead of a beat you feint, and that creates the same reaction from the other fencer than if you had made a beat.
For me, as a French grip user, a feint or a beat serve the same purpose: to make the other guy react and think they are under attack on this side, thus making them cover that side. As a pistol grip user, your beat serves a different purpose: to be strong enough to deflect the other guys' blade.

This is a bread and butter move for me. I frequently use it. it is NOT difficult with a pistol.

A pistol grip (or French grip) user won't parry a beat, they will answer it. A vast majority of the people who use pistol that I have fenced will answer a beat by trying to oppose it in the opposite direction, thus the disengage. That's where physics are useless and psychology comes into play ;-).

yes, you are right that many people "answer beats". both french AND pistol users do this. Again, it has NOTHING to do with the relative grips, but rather with outsmarting your opponent.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
I don't see the arrogance about it. All I'm saying is that it is easier to develop some kind of an absence of blade game, with a pistol grip, than it is to develop a game based on blade actions with a French.

I agree whole heartedly.

Basically, what I am saying is that to get the best of both worlds, a French grip user will have to work harder.

Once again, I agree.

They will get better point control than _MOST_ pistol grip users easier, better absence of blade game than _MOST_ pistol grip users easier

Aha!!!! I KNEW I would disagree with you somewhere! Most of my game is based on point control and absence of the blade. I have used both pistol and french and have had an easier time regarding point control with pistol. I am not saying everybody will have better point control with pistol, just that I have yet to see evidence that it is easier to get point control with french.

However, blade contact game is principally based on strength, I think so if they can work hard, they can get that extra strength that allows them to compete on blade actions, while the pistol grip users will have to overcome some tougher hurdles when developing a game based on absence of blade that is as good as the one from a French grip user.

Blade contact is NOT primarily based on strength, but rather on leverage. There is a very good fencer in my area who is not nearly so strong as I. Every time we fence, however, there will be at least one touch in which he controls my blade to an amazing degree. On the other hand, were he using a french, even his great form could be countered by my sheer power. THAT is what I mean by weakening blade actions. Could you PLEASE articulate to me why you think it is easier to develop an absence game using french????? I honestly don't understand what you are basing that contention on. All you need for an absence game is a good disengage and point control, and as I mentioned before, I do NOT agree that it is easier to have good point control with a french.

My position:
Point control: Draw
Form of blade actions: Draw
Strength of blade actions: Advantage pistol.
Reach: Advantage French, especially when posted.

-m

[damianip]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Settle it how???

I don't know enough about Veeco to POSSIBLY suggest that I could beat him. In addition, one of us beating the other has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.

-m

Settle it how? Why, on the strip, of course.

The idea of fencing each other is to put each one's theory into practice and see what happens.

And yes, the argument cannot be settled through a bout because there is no way to set up an experiment with sufficient control to test the theories.

You and I may fence, and you may beat me (based on ratings), but then you may fence Veeco, and he would beat you (based on nationality ). It doesn't settle the argument but at least we're fencing.

The real answer to all this conjecture is that it's the fencer as a whole and not any one factor which makes the difference.

I'm just trying to hijack the discussion and steer it back to fencing and away from semantics, bad physics and worse bio-mechanics.


Paolo