French grip in epee

[D'Artagnan1673]

I pulled off a pretty good prime parry on a fleche last night. And this was no pushover either.

[Miguelito]

As for me in Epee I love a French grip when it's in the hand of my opponent. In my experience they seem to be among the most vulnerable to a strong beat-lunge or beat-fleche. Especially a downward beat when I fleche to to the head or neck.

Miguel

[D'Artagnan1673]

That is why we tend to avoid blade contact and work more on counterattacks, at least that is how I do it.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Miguelito
As for me in Epee I love a French grip when it's in the hand of my opponent. In my experience they seem to be among the most vulnerable to a strong beat-lunge or beat-fleche. Especially a downward beat when I fleche to to the head or neck.

Miguel

seconded.

users of French grip are only in a slightly weaker position, but those who post are in serious trouble. this is because they are pushing the center of mass of their weapon further away from their hand, thus weakening their ability to oppose a torquing weapon. Whenever I see a poster I know I can do well with hard, quick blade actions.

-m

[D'Artagnan1673]

and a good reason why I do not post all of the time

I have found out recently that I am not as strong with the French as I thought I was. I may not be as strong, but I can hit those hand shots good.

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
seconded.

users of French grip are only in a slightly weaker position, but those who post are in serious trouble. this is because they are pushing the center of mass of their weapon further away from their hand, thus weakening their ability to oppose a torquing weapon.

-m

Not necessarily true. This depends on what type of french grip you use and how well balanced your weapon is.

A combination of a heavy pommel and ultra-light guard and blade works pretty well for me. I have been disarmed maybe once or twice in the past year, and that was when my opponent had stepped on my point while I was attempting a toe touch.

And I can pull off some pretty good oppositions, while posting.

To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial

[D'Artagnan1673]

I have also found out that the thinner the French grip, the stronger one can be with this weapon. My Uhlmann Ultralight is out of commision from a strange accident (refer to amoury post That's Crazy!). I was therefore forced to use my heavier Triplette Epee with a fat Prieur grip. I think I was disarmed 3-4 times in a night. Prior to this, I cannot remember the last time I was disarmed.

[epeemike81]

First of all, disarming is not what I was referring to. what I was referring to is the fact that with a hard beat, a poster's point will stray farther from target than that of a pistol user, or even than that of a normal french grip user. Thus, they are more vulnerable to a hard, quick beat attack. That is why the high level posters frequently use absence of the blade and stop hits. Clearly, french can be useful in epee, but it is in spite of the fact that it weakens your blade actions. I'm not saying that French is somehow inferior, just that you hvae to recognize the trade offs.

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
First of all, disarming is not what I was referring to. what I was referring to is the fact that with a hard beat, a poster's point will stray farther from target than that of a pistol user, or even than that of a normal french grip user. Thus, they are more vulnerable to a hard, quick beat attack. That is why the high level posters frequently use absence of the blade and stop hits. Clearly, french can be useful in epee, but it is in spite of the fact that it weakens your blade actions. I'm not saying that French is somehow inferior, just that you hvae to recognize the trade offs.

-m

You were talking about the impossibility to "oppose a torquing weapon". That doesn't have anything to do with a quick, hard beat.

A quick hard beat has very little torque as it is not a circular motion (if my understanding of physics is not too rusty).

Also, the lever that you gain from posting will come in handy when you are actually taking the opposition (when you're on the receiving end, that's another story).

Anyway, I am not so sure that French weakens your blade actions. It doesn't necessarily allow for the same actions that you would use when using a pistol, so you are right in saying that you have to recognize the tradeoffs, but it's more a problem of avoiding circular actions with blade contact, than not being to take the blade.

[oiuyt]

Veeco- He's right in the use of the word torque. When beat there's a force applied which tries to rotate your blade around a pivot where you're holding it (basically the point where your thumb and index finger are). The longer the moment arm (in this case the distance between the point of contact of the beat and the pivot point at your thumb/finger) the more torque is created from the same force on the beat. Posting extends the moment arm which directly correlates to a greater torque for a given beat. The factors that come into play are the length of the moment arm (discussed above), the force of the beat, and the angle of the beat.

Note that in a pistol grip there are other points of contact in addition to the pivot which help create forces which balance the torquing force of the beat. The aid fingers with a pistol grip also have this effect but to a much lesser extent.

Because one's grip doesn't act completely like a hinge there are all kinds of complicating issues (not to mention the previously mentioned actions by the aid fingers). In short however, epeemike was correctly using the word. :)

I disagree with you regarding posting helping with opposition. You're looking at the wrong pivot point. If that were true you would be able to improve your relative position by using your foible against your opponent's forte (thereby increasing the length of your "lever"). I assume that we can safely take that as a given false? Since we can already see that relatively shortening our weapon (rather the distance between our hand and the point of contact) gives an advantage, posting would therefore give away some amount of leverage rather than increasing it.

Posting weakens the leverage position any time blades are in contact. What posting helps with is reach. How large a disadvantage the decrease in leverage depends greatly on a whole host of factors, primarily the relative strengths of the fencers, the styles of the fencers, and how often leverage comes into play because the blades are in contact. How large an advantage the extra reach is similarly is dependent on a bunch of different things, again including the styles of the fencers and the relative reaches of the fencers. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. It's fairly hard and takes a lot of work to get good at being able to effectively use a posted french grip. There's a reason that most french grip users are either very bad or bery good. You tend not to see many in the intermediate levels.

-B :)

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
You were talking about the impossibility to "oppose a torquing weapon". That doesn't have anything to do with a quick, hard beat.

A quick hard beat has very little torque as it is not a circular motion (if my understanding of physics is not too rusty).

alas, but your physics IS indeed too rusty. My beat applies a force to the foible of your blade. that force is directed perpendicular to the blade. thus, the cross product of force and lever arm (i.e., the distance between where the force acts and the pivot point, in this case where you grip the weapon) is a torque. since when you post you grip the weapon further away, the lever arm is larger, and thus the torque is greater. Thus, it is harder to oppose a hard beat, thus your point will move further off of your opponents target.

-m

[epeemike81]

Sorry, but I didn't see your response until after I wrote the above.

-m

[veeco]

[quote]Originally posted by epeemike81
alas, but your physics IS indeed too rusty.

You are right on that, sorry.

Thus, it is harder to oppose a hard beat, thus your point will move further off of your opponents target.

... and will be right in place for that shot to the exposed area of your arm.

Another question, just to keep things level:

If you try to "oppose" on any beat, then you create potential energy in your blade at the point of contact, going to the opposite direction of the beat, right?

Let's assume then that I beat your blade, with my French grip (that I post). Ugh, what a wimpy beat, you would think?! Let's oppose this beat with my super strong pistol power!

At this point, when contact is made and I feel the resistance from your opposition, I will neatly disengage around your blade, thus liberating the potential energy that was stored in reaction from your opposition. Your blade will go the other way of my beat thus exposing your hand on the other side of my beat. Easy.

That's basically what I mean when saying that you cannot dismiss blade actions when you are fencing with a posted French grip.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I just hate to see an opportunity to defend the numerous (and clear) advantages to the French grip. I said it before, a large portion of the top international epeeists use the French, and post, and I don't consider it a coincidence.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
If you try to "oppose" on any beat, then you create potential energy in your blade at the point of contact, going to the opposite direction of the beat, right?

Let's assume then that I beat your blade, with my French grip (that I post). Ugh, what a wimpy beat, you would think?! Let's oppose this beat with my super strong pistol power!

At this point, when contact is made and I feel the resistance from your opposition, I will neatly disengage around your blade, thus liberating the potential energy that was stored in reaction from your opposition. Your blade will go the other way of my beat thus exposing your hand on the other side of my beat. Easy.

This (excluding the error's in the description of the physics) is true of my trying to oppose a take. However, to "oppose a beat" all that goes into it is the natural strength of position that your en garde has. there is MORE of that strength in an en garde using a pistol grip. Thus, what you were saying does NOT apply to the beat, as for the other situation, it presupposes an unsubtle power behind a pistol grip. Just because added power is available with a pistol grip does NOT mean that your actions must be large and unsubtle.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I just hate to see an opportunity to defend the numerous (and clear) advantages to the French grip. I said it before, a large portion of the top international epeeists use the French, and post, and I don't consider it a coincidence.

I am NOT disparaging the usefulness of the french grip in epee. as you say, about half of the top epeeists use french. what about the other half?? if french grips are as incredibly useful as you say, should not ALL of the top fencers use it? I am just pointing out that there are tradeoffs. French grips can give you reach, but they weaken your blade actions. that is a tradeoff. They are not better, not worse, just different.

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
This (excluding the error's in the description of the physics) is true of my trying to oppose a take. However, to "oppose a beat" all that goes into it is the natural strength of position that your en garde has. there is MORE of that strength in an en garde using a pistol grip. Thus, what you were saying does NOT apply to the beat, as for the other situation, it presupposes an unsubtle power behind a pistol grip. Just because added power is available with a pistol grip does NOT mean that your actions must be large and unsubtle.

Aah, but I beg to differ, there is at least one thing that I remember clearly from my high school physics, which was that "every action has a reaction". Either you are holding your grip loose, and the beat has it's effect, which is to deflect the opponents point, either you are holding your grip firmly (note that I am not talking about a "death" grip there), and in that case when you "oppose" the beat, once the beat is released, your point will go in the opposite direction.

I am NOT disparaging the usefulness of the french grip in epee. as you say, about half of the top epeeists use french. what about the other half?? if french grips are as incredibly useful as you say, should not ALL of the top fencers use it? I am just pointing out that there are tradeoffs. French grips can give you reach, but they weaken your blade actions. that is a tradeoff. They are not better, not worse, just different.

-m

Maybe you need to compare the number of high level fencers who use it among the group "high level fencers" to the number of people who use it among the group "not so high level".

If the ratio in the first group is say 1 out of every 2, and in the first group it is only say 1 out of every three, then that either means:

a- that the fencers who fence with a French grip have a better chance at becoming high level, because it gives them an advantage over the pistol grip users.
b- that the fencers who fence with a pistol grip don't know how to deal with a fencer using a French grip, thus they get beat by the French grip users who end up climbing their way to the top.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
Aah, but I beg to differ, there is at least one thing that I remember clearly from my high school physics, which was that "every action has a reaction". Either you are holding your grip loose, and the beat has it's effect, which is to deflect the opponents point, either you are holding your grip firmly (note that I am not talking about a "death" grip there), and in that case when you "oppose" the beat, once the beat is released, your point will go in the opposite direction.

Stop trying to use physics, and start referencing your experience. I must admit I certainly HAVE used a beat, disengage hit before, but that has to do with the fact that my opponent parried every time I beat in four. Were I to try to do this against somebody who DIDN't auto-parry, I would find myself on the outside of a very closed guard.

Maybe you need to compare the number of high level fencers who use it among the group "high level fencers" to the number of people who use it among the group "not so high level".

If the ratio in the first group is say 1 out of every 2, and in the first group it is only say 1 out of every three, then that either means:

a- that the fencers who fence with a French grip have a better chance at becoming high level, because it gives them an advantage over the pistol grip users.
b- that the fencers who fence with a pistol grip don't know how to deal with a fencer using a French grip, thus they get beat by the French grip users who end up climbing their way to the top.

This argument is VERY specious reasoning and would seem to be refuted by the fact that a VASTLY higher percentage of BAD fencers use French. After all, I could say:
Maybe you need to compare the number of fencers who use it among the group "bad fencers" to the number of people who use it among the group "not so bad fencers".

If the ratio in the first group is say 1 out of every 2, and in the second group it is only say 1 out of every three, then that either means:

a- fencers who fence with a french grip are more likely to suck because french grips give them a disadvantage compared with pistol grip users.
b- fencers who use french grip cannot deal with fencers who use pistol grips, thus they lose to the pistol grip users who end up climbing higher than the french grip users do.

As you can see, this is VERY faulty logic, and since it mirrors your logic exactly, your logic is ALSO faulty.
The arguments that either french is superior to pistol or that pistol is superior to french is untennable. IT IS A TRADEOFF. they are DIFFERENT, with different strengths and weaknesses.

To not recognize the downsides of a french grip is to be in denial.

-m

[Artisan]

B]To not recognize the downsides of a french grip is to be in denial.[/b]


....the sound of a gauntlet dropping....[

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Artisan
B]To not recognize the downsides of a french grip is to be in denial.


....the sound of a gauntlet dropping....[ [/b]

hehe.....

it was just a response to the gauntlet of:
"To not recognize the power of a french grip is to be in denial."

Again: my position is NOT that pistol is better, but rather that they have tradeoffs. if one were an uber-grip, then ALL high level fencers would use it, as with pistol grip in foil. The fact that it is split half and half in the higher levels of epee is evidence that there is a tradeoff.

-m

[D'Artagnan1673]

Even I must agree with this.