French grip in epee

[mfp]

Originally posted by veeco
Using a wrist strap with a French grip is classified as illegal in the USFencing FAQ (on their website)

Well . . . the faq on the USFA website does indeed say the combination is illegal. However I wonder what the faq on the USFA FOC website would say (if the link weren't broken) considering the FOC website is maintained by FOC member Bill Oliver who wrote the following:

The martingale or wrist strap is legal for use in USFA competition,
irrespective of the type of grip used. There is much mis-information out
there about the use of the strap, but this is the final word on the subject.
Wrist straps are ok. Italian grips are ok, with strap or without. No type
of grip is prohibited, specifically by the rules. Any grip used (except the
French) must conform to the rules regarding grips; the hand must be fixed
in one place, the grip can't allow the weapon the be used as a throwing
weapon, the thumb must be no more than 2 cm from the inside of the guard,
etc.

I hope this clears up some questions....

Bill Oliver
Fencing Official's Commission


Bill's comments were originally posted by Craig in this thread:

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...&threadid=4578

[veeco]

Originally posted by mfp
Well . . . the faq on the USFA website does indeed say the combination is illegal. However I wonder what the faq on the USFA FOC website would say (if the link weren't broken) considering the FOC website is maintained by FOC member Bill Oliver who wrote the following:

The martingale or wrist strap is legal for use in USFA competition,
irrespective of the type of grip used. There is much mis-information out
there about the use of the strap, but this is the final word on the subject.
Wrist straps are ok. Italian grips are ok, with strap or without. No type
of grip is prohibited, specifically by the rules. Any grip used (except the
French) must conform to the rules regarding grips; the hand must be fixed
in one place, the grip can't allow the weapon the be used as a throwing
weapon, the thumb must be no more than 2 cm from the inside of the guard,
etc.

I hope this clears up some questions....

Bill Oliver
Fencing Official's Commission


Bill's comments were originally posted by Craig in this thread:

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...&threadid=4578

What Bill says here doesn't seem to conflict with the fact that French grips and wrist straps aren't allowed together. It's doesn't say that wrist straps are specifically allowed with French grips. Therefore, I don't think that this proves any point at all.

Furthermore, I think that the thread you mention ed above was dated from before that FAQ was actually posted, so it could be possible that since then someone looked closely at the relevant rules (which are even copied below the item in the FAQ and are quite clear) and realized that they were wrong.

[mfp]

Originally posted by veeco
What Bill says here doesn't seem to conflict with the fact that French grips and wrist straps aren't allowed together.

I'd say Bill's very first sentence "conflicts" with the claim that "French grips and wrist straps aren't allowed together", i.e. the sentence where Bill wrote:

The martingale or wrist strap is legal for use in USFA competition, irrespective of the type of grip used.

Bill is not only an FOC member, but he's also listed as editor of the US rules, so I'd consider that somewhat authoritative.

One nice self consistent reading of the rules I can see is that:

1) a wrist strap is allowed with any grip (including French). There are no rules prohibiting wrist straps.

but

2) when a strap is used with any grip (including a non-orthopedic grip aka "French"), the grip in that combination then includes an attachment and therefore the requirements of m4 item 6 (a) and (b) apply.

i.e. If (grip or glove has attachment) or (grip has special shape to fix hand position) then m4 item 6 applies.

The upshot being that sure you can use a strap with a non-ortho grip, but it then it includes an attachment and is required to fix the hand in one position, where the thumb (when extended) is not more than 2 cm from the guard. So you can have your strap but you'll give up several advantages of your non-ortho (aka French) grip.

[Gav]

Why not go with the FIE rules rather than the local (ie USFA) 'amendments'? When you fence at the higher levels (even though the same rules should really be used throughout for consistencies sake) you will be made to use the FIE rules.

I don't have mine to hand, so I won't comment on legality although I've never seen anyone in competition use any kind of wrist strap.

ps By amendments I mean any local variations of the rules that may not prove consistent with the FIE (read international) rules.

[mfp]

Originally posted by Gav
Why not go with the FIE rules rather than the local (ie USFA) 'amendments'? When you fence at the higher levels (even though the same rules should really be used throughout for consistencies sake) you will be made to use the FIE rules.

[...]

ps By amendments I mean any local variations of the rules that may not prove consistent with the FIE (read international) rules.

The forward to the USFA 2000 version of the rules notes that:

This American Version of the international rules governing fencing competitions is translated and adapted from the 1998 French edition published by the FIE and incorporates changes made by the FIE Congresses through 1999.

and the preface later says:

This current edition is based, in large part on the British translation of the FIE Rules.

So if there are any oversights in translation, perhaps the Americans can blame the Brits and their poor French skills

As he's French (and a high level fencer and US resident) veeco might have his own opinion on the faithfulness of the translation for rule m4, etc.

Originally posted by Gav
I don't have mine to hand, so I won't comment on legality although I've never seen anyone in competition use any kind of wrist strap.

Whether X is legal or whether X is useful are two entirely different questions.

[Gav]

Whether X is legal or whether X is useful are two entirely different questions.

Up to a point however you would expect to see 'X' in widespread, use especially at the upper levels, if it gave a fencer an advantage [if it was legal].

So if there are any oversights in translation, perhaps the Americans can blame the Brits and their poor French skills,

If you've seen 'Allo, Allo' then you'll know how bad we Brit's are at French.

[veeco]

Originally posted by mfp


1) a wrist strap is allowed with any grip (including French). There are no rules prohibiting wrist straps.

There are no rules that specifically allow them either (with French grips.). Your statement doesn't figure in the rules, it's just word of mouth from someone. On the other hand we have an official USFA website that states the contrary. If I were considering the use of a wrist strap, I would go with the website.

The reason why there are no rules that explicitly prohibit wrist straps is just because it is generally refered to as an "attachment or device". One cannot restrict the rules to wrist straps or any other specific kind of attachment or device, because when next year someone comes up with a glove that has a special locking system on it, then the rules will have to be revisited for the next year, giving an unfair advantage to the persons who purchased that "special glove" for a year, while the rules are being edited.

2) when a strap is used with any grip (including a non-orthopedic grip aka "French"), the grip in that combination then includes an attachment and therefore the requirements of m4 item 6 (a) and (b) apply.

The rules in question (pulled from the FAQ on the USFA website) are:

m6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.
(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.
(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard.


This is where the problem lies:
With a French grip, and a wrist strap, it is possible to:

1. Alter the position your hand on the grip during the bout. A wrist strap is not so tight that it is impossible to shift your grip back and forth during the bout.

2. Fix your hand on the grip in a position such that the extremity of your thumb is more than 2cm from the inner surface of the guard.

Failing any one of these 2 tests means that the grip or attachment is invalid. This is the interpretation of the rules which is being displayed currently on the website.

[veeco]

Originally posted by mfp

As he's French (and a high level fencer and US resident) veeco might have his own opinion on the faithfulness of the translation for rule m4, etc.

The translation seems pretty accurate from my point of view. It doesn't matter though, because what rules the fencing in the US is the USFA rules, irregardless of what translation errors or discrepancies they might contain. And they do contain at least one (the dreaded strip side coaching issue).

On the other hand, in FIE competitions the French translation of the rules prevails in case of discrepancies.

[veeco]

.

[oiuyt]

That's why there's no strip side coaching at FIE events... because the French-language version of the rules is followed.... </tongue-in-cheek>

-B :)

[D'Artagnan1673]

No surprises here, but I too fence with a French grip. For the most part, I hold the weapon in the traditional way. I will post however against fencers who tend to run into my blade.

[epeefencer74]

To all fencers using the french grip; how do you handle fencers who like to take the blade or attack the blade, i.e. beats? Is there a significant difference in terms of control of a french grip weapon as compared to a pistol? Would you substitute the supinated parries with pronated ones to maintain strength and control, e.g. substituting seconde for octave?

[Gav]

To all fencers using the french grip; how do you handle fencers who like to take the blade or attack the blade, i.e. beats? Is there a significant difference in terms of control of a french grip weapon as compared to a pistol? Would you substitute the supinated parries with pronated ones to maintain strength and control, e.g. substituting seconde for octave?

Derobement, distance and timing. Pommeling with a french grip is a completely different style to orthopaedic. Watch the top level fencers who use the French grip (eg Jeannet and Milanoli) to get an idea if how to use it.

[Falling Cow]

I try to disengage or cutover beats and reposte to the arm. I wouldn't switch to the pronated parries. I like to hold the sword so my thumb is at about 1 o'clock so seven and eight (pardon my english) come pretty naturally. As to the control, I have found it is much easier to make fine adjustments with the french grip. It is easier to slip around your opponents blade.

[D'Artagnan1673]

I prefer a large amount of stop hits in my game. I will on occasion large attacks when an oppenent is getting too comfortable. I prefer to perform complex disengage shots. I will also on occasion take my opponents blade into sixte and attack into the body.

I feel that my point control is one of the most important aspects of my fencing skill.

[epeefencer74]

From what I gather, it seems that disengages and stop hits are the order of the day for french grip. Am I correct to say that? What about taking of the opponent's blade, is it a good tactic to use against someone using an orthopedic grip? I ask this because I am having difficulty adapting to the french grip. I like to attack my opponent's blade and to take it in binds and crosses and I find it difficult to do that with a french grip. Does anyone else have this difficulty? Does it get easier with time and training?

[damianip]

Originally posted by epeefencer74
From what I gather, it seems that disengages and stop hits are the order of the day for french grip. Am I correct to say that? What about taking of the opponent's blade, is it a good tactic to use against someone using an orthopedic grip? I ask this because I am having difficulty adapting to the french grip. I like to attack my opponent's blade and to take it in binds and crosses and I find it difficult to do that with a french grip. Does anyone else have this difficulty? Does it get easier with time and training?

It's all a matter of technique.

I'm finally making progress with takes, beats and binds, but it has taken a while. I previously fenced almost completely with an absence of blade.

My coach, who also uses a French, can take and control almost anybody's blade. It just takes more practice and finesse and the realization that you can't muscle your way out of a poorly executed blade action.

Paolo

[RC]

The parry in prime, very useful against the fleche and the counter-sixte, is much easier to perform with a French grip. Most of my successful attacks are landed with a disengage.

[veeco]

Originally posted by RC
The parry in prime, very useful against the fleche and the counter-sixte, is much easier to perform with a French grip. Most of my successful attacks are landed with a disengage.

I myself find incredibly _hard_ to do a prime well with a posted French grip... How do you do this???

[RC]

I don't usually post. I extend my forefinger to touch the inside of the bell but that is all. I get an inch or two of reach advantage over pistol grips but still maintain the control needed to execute a parry in prime. I'm still working on getting the technique down (especially using prime against a counter-sixte) but the look on my opponent's face when I get it right is well worth the effort!