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big poppa · 10-16-2002, 08:55 AM

I have to get some students ready for a meet in about five weeks. I hate the idea of them fighting so soon (most are begining students) What in your opnions would be the best onr thing to teach them to get ready. In my mind it would be the control of distance but, I would like other opinions.

lochinvar · 10-16-2002, 09:16 AM

Poppa, I'm not a coach and I sort of disagree with you on how soon beginners should be put into competition, but my (not so authoritative) advice is to concentrate on the riposte after parrying.

I've seen it so many times; a newbie will parry well, but never follow it with a counter-attack. They just stand there and parry, parry, parry...inevitably, an attack finally lands and they lose the touch which they might have won if they'd just riposted.

Riposting after parrying should be a reflex, as automatic as running to first base after hitting the ball in baseball.

Good luck to you and your team.

latenight · 10-16-2002, 10:15 AM

Distance, footwork and parry 4 and 6.

Worry about the rest later. I don't have a problem with starting people early. It let's them see what they are training for and makes them more dedicated in practice. It also let's them see that distance is ultra important.

If you can tape them fencing, you can show them what happened back at the salle. This alone will make the competition worthwhile. It's one thing for someone to tell you your leaning on your lunges. It's another to actually see how bad it looks and what the consequences actually are.

Good Luck!!!

oiuyt · 10-16-2002, 11:00 AM

extending their arm.

this is where I see most beginners lose touches in any of the three weapons. Attack-counterattack calls in F/S and stophits in epee all because they "attack" with their feet not their hand.

-B :)

Jason · 10-16-2002, 03:28 PM

I would advise not worrying about the competition.
If you're dealing with beginners, putting too much emphasis on competition is only going to make problems.
Make sure they realize that, being beginners, no one is expecting any particular result from them in competition, and that they should look at it as an opportunity to see what a competition is like, to see what other fencers do, etc.
Otherwise, coach them in a normal, introductory way.

Purple Fencer · 10-16-2002, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oiuyt
extending their arm.

this is where I see most beginners lose touches in any of the three weapons. Attack-counterattack calls in F/S and stophits in epee all because they "attack" with their feet not their hand.

-B

Also KEEPING it extended if they mean to hit. I've seen far too many beginners (and not a few experienced fencers) extend, go a GREAT lunge, and then pull the arm back at the last minute.

Attack is short, counter is good...touch NOT to you!

veeco · 10-16-2002, 03:54 PM

If you want to keep them, teach them that they will get creamed and that it's normal. That's the most important thing to teach them: the love of the sport and how to have fun even when you lose.

The rest will come with years of practice and lessons. There is no one thing that you can teach them that will make them successful. That's why fencing is so great.

Probulus · 10-16-2002, 04:24 PM

I was taught at a very early age that winning isn't everything and all that by parents and so forth. My coach taught me otherwise and made all the difference. If you tell them that they are going to get spanked, they will. If you thell them that they are not going to lose, you improve thier chances of not losing.

Peach · 10-16-2002, 04:57 PM

Losing happens at least once to everybody except one at a tournament. People who expect to win all the time usually quit in disgust, or change their viewpoint, or just hang around being a pain to everybody else, unless they are lucky enough (or gifted enough) to win all the time. People who PLAN to win, on the other hand, are more likely to win.

I started when I was 43. I would be asinine to go to every competition expecting to win. I certainly plan to win, and when it's possible, I often do. When it's not possible to win, I still do all right, but I have a lot more fun than if winning were my only motivation.

The point of fencing is to play the game. The point of the game is to win. I play to win, but I play.

Tim P. Miceli · 10-16-2002, 04:57 PM

As it is there is a big difference between fencing not to loose and fencing to win.

The psychological approach to the match will be different if they go out there and are focusing on not getting hit.

As opposed to if they go out there focusing on hitting their opponent.

Teaching this will instill a more competitive/confident/agressive attitude in your students.

NOTE: I am not saying that defencive things should not be worried about... I am talking about a way of thinking.

Also another thing to make sure of is that they aren't planning out thier whole match in their head, a good coach of mine tought me that at most you should have at most 1 or 2 moves/actions planed out in your head for the begining of a match after that, you have to take it as it goes.

veeco · 10-16-2002, 05:37 PM

I definitely agree that you don't want to instill negative thoughts into your students' brains. But on the other hand, when you take complete beginners to a competition, one has to be realistic and not set too high expectations for them.

I was merely pointing out that taking people early to a tournament is one thing, and it's debatable whether this is sound teaching method or not, but looking for the one thing that will make them succesful in that tournament is a wild goose chase in my mind. You might as well take them with the realistic goal that they will not do well in the overall ranking of the tournament but that they should at least say score x touches against the weakest person in their pool.

You can spend all the time you want in the next days preceding the tournament teaching them parry 4, opposition 6 and what not, in the end, they are not going to do well, and they better be prepared for that.

Otherwise some of them might decide that fencing is not the sport for them and then quit. This is America, the novelty factor wears off pretty quickly.

haggis · 10-16-2002, 05:42 PM

Teach them whatever you normally would in five weeks and when it comes to competition time make sure that you encourage them to use what they have learnt. If they've been taught well (and let's assume they have

) and put it to use in the competition they'll be fine. They may not win but they'll understand that training prepares them for competitions if they do it right.

Good luck. I hope it goes well for you and them.

Haggis

counter riposte · 10-16-2002, 06:21 PM

No doubt,

Winning is fun. No one doubts that simple fact, that clobbering someone on the strip can be a very psychological high. Like Peach said, play to win, but play to play. If you go into a bout screaming at yourself for all the touches that you missed, then it is not going to be fun for either opponent. Just have fun.

Just remember that in order to have a game, you actually have to have another person to play against. And to me that is one of the most important things. Just the ability to look at sport as a release and get to know others that I may not have met before, is a great thing to me. So play to win, but overall, just play.

KShan5[PrFC] · 10-16-2002, 08:12 PM

I would definately have to say attacking(lunge) and extending your arm. And maybe some of your better fencers, you should show them how not to remise after an attack. And tell them to keep the actions simple.

For example, my first tournament ever (2-3 monthes after starting fencing), I was up 14-11 in my first DE. I started to try and do fancy stuff, such as pulling distance, and second intentions. 3 seconds later, la belle Then for 5 straight actions we both just kept attacking and getting simul calls. he changed first by backing up, I moved on.

135711 · 10-16-2002, 08:21 PM

I would definately have to say attacking(lunge) and extending your arm.

[craig, do you have smilies that nod?]

epeefencer74 · 10-16-2002, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by veeco
I definitely agree that you don't want to instill negative thoughts into your students' brains. But on the other hand, when you take complete beginners to a competition, one has to be realistic and not set too high expectations for them.

I was merely pointing out that taking people early to a tournament is one thing, and it's debatable whether this is sound teaching method or not, but looking for the one thing that will make them succesful in that tournament is a wild goose chase in my mind. You might as well take them with the realistic goal that they will not do well in the overall ranking of the tournament but that they should at least say score x touches against the weakest person in their pool.

'Tis a fine line we walk, those of us who coach to inspire our students to want to win and yet keep them grounded enough to not be disillussioned when they do lose.

veeco · 10-17-2002, 05:08 AM

Oh, man, that would make a perfect quote for a book. What else to say after that? I am speechless.

fence1848 · 10-22-2002, 05:46 PM

For my first USFA event, my coach had me go to a regional circuit event, a high-end, A-rated tournament. Naturally, he said, "you're not going to win any bouts." You'll be lucky to win a few touches. Let's face it, he was right. Was it a self-fulfilling prophecy? Absolutely not. The main reason I lost is because I saw styles of fencing thrown at me that I never even knew existed.

In the long run, it's for the best. I was kind of cocky at the time, and seeing that I had a lot of room for improvement made me want to develop my fencing. I often see one student in a beginners' class who does something that nails everyone else in the class, and they come to rely on that one move (which is usually an unrefined move). When they try to use that move on someone more experienced who turns it back on them, they come to realize the importance of refining one's fencing.

The main thing I emphasize to my students who want to compete in their first USFA event is to learn from the event and stick around watching the fencing long after one is knocked out of DE.

I tell my students, "they are ready to compete when they are ready to lose AND learn an important lesson from the tournament."

Just losing and walking away with nothing learned is the only way you can truly lose.

135711 · 10-22-2002, 08:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by counter riposte
[b]No doubt,

Winning is fun. No one doubts that simple fact, that clobbering someone on the strip can be a very psychological high. Like Peach said, play to win, but play to play. If you go into a bout screaming at yourself for all the touches that you missed, then it is not going to be fun for either opponent. Just have fun.

Winning is fun, is the crucial point. I had a lot of "fun" fencing and I had a coach here who pretended to be insulted if I had "fun" fencing. He just didn't want me to win, i couldn't decide if it was because I am almost black, or because i'm straight. Fencing to win for fun is fun.

QUOTE: "you're not going to win any bouts." You'll be lucky to win a few touches. Let's face it, he was right. Was it a self-fulfilling prophecy? Absolutely not.

my response: WHAT a nice guy. Dump him. What kind of junk is that. I would have said: you've fenced very strongly now for X amount of years, you're doing very well, or I wouldn't have encouraged you to enter this tournement. Your competition is highly rated and very well prepared. I want you to do your best. Don't get psyched out, don't argue any points. Keep cool and fence strongly. I'll be keeping track of your points and we'll talk later about your results.

counter riposte · 10-23-2002, 03:36 PM

Yes, competing to win IS fun. Agreed. No one fences to lose. But there is a significant difference between fencing an "A" fencer, where you are fencing to survive and get every touch possible, and fencing a "U" who has never fenced a tournament in thier life.

Know your opponent, and know that fencing should be a fun thing. After all, without an opponent, you have no game, no sport, no fun.