Advantage/disadvantage of a bent tang for an angle?

[Gav]

Having not thought about this much at all, I would assume that it's somewhat more likely that a cant would prevent/help a repetitive motion injury than a cant would create an injury. But having NO data and NO expertise in any subject that relates, I have to assume that it could do anything or nothing.

It may also be that for someone that has a repetative motion injury after using a canted blade might find using an uncanted blade to be somewhat helpful (because the slight difference might be enough of a different motion).

Again, there are so many different factors I'm not sure if it's possible to design an experiment that would generate good data.

I don't really know what to say... Without any knowledge or expertise you posit a hypothesis you have no idea how to test?

I have never seen any evidence that canting a blade leads to injuries. The fact that jlots of people do cant their blades says that it does something. I know there's some disagreement on what, but it makes a difference. For the record I think it IS all about ergonomics but nothing to do with causing injuries and everything to do with comfort (so possibly preventing injuries).

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I don't really know what to say... Without any knowledge or expertise you posit a hypothesis you have no idea how to test?

I have never seen any evidence that canting a blade leads to injuries. The fact that jlots of people do cant their blades says that it does something. I know there's some disagreement on what, but it makes a difference. For the record I think it IS all about ergonomics but nothing to do with causing injuries and everything to do with comfort (so possibly preventing injuries).

Without any knowledge or expertise I posited two hypotheses that I have no idea how to test, one I think possible, one I think very unlikely. I then asked if we had any further information about it.

It might be, for example, that a miscanted blade causes injuries, but a properly canted blade has no effect. (and by miscanted, I mean a righty using a lefty blade.)

I mean, seriously, my blades are all canted. I appreciate the arguments for setting a blade. But the OP wanted pros and cons. Everyone else gave the advantages..... I tried to find some disadvantages.

[epeelion]

Why does no one get a good old-fashioned joke anymore? ::grumble::

Inq, that's not an answer, you know...

[yearsofwisdom]

i used my friends rather canted blade and i must say, feels much nicer on the wrist, and definitely helps my parry 4. ALOT. i felt like i was holdi a french grip b4...

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Why does no one get a good old-fashioned joke anymore? ::grumble::

Inq, that's not an answer, you know...

I have been numbed by chase. There are no jokes anymore. Nothing will ever be funny again.

[Inquartata]

Why does no one get a good old-fashioned joke anymore? ::grumble::

Inq, that's not an answer, you know...

It's the ONLY answer! ( I'd capitalize that whole sentence if I could. )

Once there was a devout caliph who conquered a city. Upon viewing the city's great library, he is reported to have said "If these books say things that are not in the holy Koran, they are blasphemous; let them be burned. If they say things that ARE in the holy Koran, they are redundant; so let them be burned."

It's kinda like that.

Aaanyway...it's pretty well established that lots of typing with your wrists at the wrong angles will cause carpal tunnel syndrome. So if a blade cant requires you to bend your wrists at the wrong angle while you manipulate the weapon, it seems possible that that too could cause problems.

Don't you poky-weapon guys sometimes complain about hand cramps and such from pistol grips? What are pistol grips doing but making you angle your fingers and wrists in certain ways?

I can totally see blade angulation causing elbow tendinitis, as well. But no, I haven't ever seen a study, so it's only speculation at this point.

You know---the way it's speculation that blade canting helps your fencing, or makes your weapons lighter.

[Gav]

I mean, seriously, my blades are all canted. I appreciate the arguments for setting a blade. But the OP wanted pros and cons. Everyone else gave the advantages..... I tried to find some disadvantages.

The disadvantages are that the blade may feel "odd" and it might be difficult to hit someone. That's it really. There's not much else to say.

In ergonomic terms that's not a good thing either and might even cause long term injuries...

[Superscribe]

Carpal tunnel syndrome generally results from a nerve in your hand being compressed for long periods of time (order of magnitude would be tens of minutes). The only way to really compress that median nerve is through angling the wrist. Unless you are holding a parry…. 7 for something on the order of minutes to hours, carpal tunnel isn’t really an issue. There is enough variation in the wrist through most fencing bouts that sustained pressure on the median nerve is never really significant. The en guarde positions that I’ve ever seen are generally have the wrist neutral enough to not compress the median nerve.
Repeating motions and stress on the wrist can lead to other problems, but generally not carpal tunnel syndrome, unless your wrist is held in a certain way for long periods of time while you’re doing that repetitive motion (typing). Holding your fingers funny can lead to other problems, but will generally not result in carpal tunnel. There are congenital factors which may result in an increased likelihood for CTS. There are always exceptions to what I just said. I’m not a CTS specialist, but I have gotten a chance to study the mechanics of the wrist for a while.

When considering most fencing actions, I can generally have my point go to its destination with less strain on my wrist using a pistol grip, than if I were using a French grip.

Some con’s against using a cant? Fencing against lefty’s (if you are a righty) may be slightly more difficult, as your point may have a tendency to slide off more.

[Inquartata]

And of course if you Kant your blade it may help you with your epistemology.

[piste off]

To me it is rather simple. Canting puts less stress on my arm.

Take a pencil in your hand and have it point straight up. Now extend your hand keeping the pencil perpendicular to the ground. To me it feels pretty natural.

Now do the same thing and angle the pencil forward (try 45 degrees). If you are anything like me, you'll feel tension along the arm (in particular on the top above the elbow). That can't (no pun) be good long term.

Canting allows the fencer to maintain (for the thrusting weapons) the line while adhering to a more straight-up maintenance of the hand. That is why if feels better and IMO will be better to avoid injuries. I don’t have any research though.

R-

[dsteinschneider]

I made a template of the cant my son's coach set for him by cutting off one of his broken blades so that just 3 inches of blade was left. Then I ground off the edges and stowed it in our toolkit. Everytime I setup a new blade I put the square portion of the new blade's tang (wire channel of blade towards me) into our vise (4 inch bolted to a workmate bench - thanks Swordmasters for that idea), with the beginning of the blade portion raised a couple of millimeters above the top of the vise. Then I push the blade towards the back of the vise until it matches my "template". Then I put it in the vise with the wire channel facing to my left and bend it towards the back of the vise again. I compare it with my template to make sure its the same.

This is for a right handed fencer. Might make more sense put the blade in the vise with the tang exposed and bend using a pipe as others here recommended but my method works fine for me.

[parrythis]

Put your blade in a vise with the tang sticking up. Use a piece of pipe (1/2" diameter or smaller if you can find it) to bend the tang.

... OR ...

Put the tang in a vice with the blade sticking out to the side. (Leave a bit of space between the edge of the vice and the bottom end of the blade.) Use a piece of pipe (3/4" diameter) and slide it over the blade and bend gently.

More leverage, easier to bend, less likely to break the blade.

Note that this approach allows you to easily replicate the same cant on all of your blades. Pick one that you like. Put it in the vice. Mark where the tip is on a flat surface perpendicular to the blade. Remove the first blade from the vice, insert the new one, and bend until its point is in the same place as the original blade.

[darius]

Don't you poky-weapon guys sometimes complain about hand cramps and such from pistol grips? What are pistol grips doing but making you angle your fingers and wrists in certain ways?

As opposed to French grips? Most orthopedic grips put the hand in a more natural position, unless you take care to bend a straight grip just right.

I can totally see blade angulation causing elbow tendinitis, as well. But no, I haven't ever seen a study, so it's only speculation at this point.

Depends on the blade angulation. I spend the better part of a workday with a foil in my hand, and developed a nasty bit of tendonitis. Part of my treatment was to switch between multiple grips, giving lessons to kiddies with straight grips, occasionally using a different one for bouting. On top of that, do the right stretches and strengthening exercises and generally treat my forearm like v-ballers treat their knees; lots of preemptive ice. It's gone now.

Now, of course, we need a peer-reviewed study here too, but my blade cants are such that a nice loose natural arm extension will bring the blade a few degrees down and into a right-handed opponent's target. I highly doubt that changing the cant would have a causal effect on tendonitis. Carpal tunnel seems like it could develop, but only if you're forcing the hand somewhere it shouldn't be...a poor cant could do this, because you'd have to force your hand into an unnatural position to compensate for the cant.

darius

[Inquartata]

To me it is rather simple. Canting puts less stress on my arm.

Take a pencil in your hand and have it point straight up. Now extend your hand keeping the pencil perpendicular to the ground. To me it feels pretty natural.

Now do the same thing and angle the pencil forward (try 45 degrees). If you are anything like me, you'll feel tension along the arm (in particular on the top above the elbow). That can't (no pun) be good long term.

Canting allows the fencer to maintain (for the thrusting weapons) the line while adhering to a more straight-up maintenance of the hand. That is why if feels better and IMO will be better to avoid injuries. I don’t have any research though.

R-

To paraphrase Olivier to Hoffman, only not so much, "Or you could try pronating your hand".

By the way, why do you want to keep a thrusting weapon perpendicular to the ground?

[Mergs]

By the way, why do you want to keep a thrusting weapon perpendicular to the ground?

To stab yourself in the foot?!?