Foil Bib will Not be Target at US Fencing Events

[Craig]

The motion was withdrawn.

Craig

[unlikelysuspect08]

Awesome.
And I love the sweet MS paint-esque X through the mask.

[Purple Fencer]

Good call!!! Now if only FIE could see the sense....

[Craig]

Good call!!! Now if only FIE could see the sense....

As a fencer, I actually would welcome the rule change given how much "duck and cover" is going on now. As a vendor, I don't like the rule change b/c it means more (specialized) inventory to track.

Craig

[Greybeard]

And for wheelchair fencers?

[downunder]

Good call!!! Now if only FIE could see the sense....

Have you ever seen a competition run with the bib?

[Purple Fencer]

Have you ever seen a competition run with the bib?

I'd rather the rules against unnatural body positioning/covering target, or make sure people wear the proper size mask (so no people with a small measurement wearing an XL) be enforced than mandating an expensive new rule that adds ANOTHER layer of potential equipment failure.

[telkanuru]

mandating an expensive new rule that adds ANOTHER layer of potential equipment failure.

Yes, but we've already established that you are pretty much a frothy-mouthed nut when it comes to voicing concerns over safety.

You know what? Let's all just stop fencing. Then we'll be perfectly safe.

[catwood1]

You know what? Let's all just stop fencing. Then we'll be perfectly safe.

Per hour, I'm reasonably sure there are more deaths in most other activities then fencing.

Fencing is KEEPING us safe.

[telkanuru]

A sarcasm meter? Now there's a useful invention...

[Superscribe]

Yes, but we've already established that you are pretty much a frothy-mouthed nut when it comes to voicing concerns over safety.

You know what? Let's all just stop fencing. Then we'll be perfectly safe.

The only thing we've established is that your pretentiousness seems to have gotten the best of you, and has clouded your ability to comprehend that "equipment failure" means the bib stops conducting properly and has nothing to do with safety, you thick and dense little boy.

Stop trying to be pretend like you have any business in this discussion, and go continue to be boring. Boring like epee is boring.

Good day to you, sir.

[rudd]

Have you ever seen a competition run with the bib?

Question for Downunder. Do you think the adding the bib as target has made a significant difference at the international level? I remeber Barry Paul posting that he though t it was significant as was a contributer to Richard Kruse's success this season.

My own experince has been incoclusive. There are a number of juniors in my current club who train with the new bib as they compete internationally. When I fence them I don't change my game but the bib may be worth one additional on target every two to three bouts.

Given that it doesn't alter the game to any great degree and the percentage of the membership who need it for FIE competition is quiet small the USFA's approach seems sensible. It might have been nice if they had provided a time line to review there stance.

The more often I fence against people in the new bib the more I realize that the safety issue is totally over stated. I would be perfectly happy to fence wearing one.

[catwood1]

A sarcasm meter? Now there's a useful invention...

Don't s count for anything anymore?!?!?!

[telkanuru]

Only if I notice them

[Purple Fencer]

The only thing we've established is that your pretentiousness seems to have gotten the best of you, and has clouded your ability to comprehend that "equipment failure" means the bib stops conducting properly and has nothing to do with safety, you thick and dense little boy.

That's exactly what I meant....thanks.

Dan DeChaine tells a story of a collegiate sabre team that had the mask cord tab on EVERY lame fail...something that happens when one bends the tab back and forth a LOT and breaks the threads at the hinge point....funny how suddenly no hits to their heads would have registered.

Same thing can happen to the tab on a foil mask. Sure, it may only be effective for one point, but that point could be the diff between winning and losing.

Foil is the most complex of the three scoring circuits....there are already a LOT of places the system can fail...and adding another handful of those points makes no sense when simply enforcing correct mask sizing and penalizing "duck and cover" -- which is clearly designed to hide target -- would have a similar effect.

[edew]

I say, bring back the flick with a shorter debounce time. The threat of hitting the back will prevent the duck and covering.

If people think flicks to the back don't have enough verisimilitude, I'm sure ducking and placing one's head in front of an oncoming blade would make for far better re-creation of an actual bout. (<- sarcasm)

[misha]

I say, bring back the flick with a shorter debounce time. The threat of hitting the back will prevent the duck and covering.

If people think flicks to the back don't have enough verisimilitude, I'm sure ducking and placing one's head in front of an oncoming blade would make for far better re-creation of an actual bout. (<- sarcasm)

How about use the whole mask as target
No covering by mask for sure and one can re-use saber mask....


.

[Inquartata]

However, Sam, "enforce penalties against duck and cover" means delays during bouts. From the perspective of organizations it is always better to shift costs away from officials and onto participants.

I absolutely do not buy the argument that foil should be immune to the little problems with which the other weapons must cope because it's "complex", though. The little hothouse flowers who fence it can just learn to live with the same things we sabre fencers do!

[downunder]

My personal experience with the new bib has been refereeing at the Bonn Men's Foil World Cup this international season and two domestic events in the UK in the past month.

I would disagree from the FOC view that it has not made any significant difference. It removes a big incentive (that came with the new timings) to duck/squirm, as by doing so brings the bib to 'normal' fencing height and it the point doesn't bounce/slide off like it can do on the lame. It catches brilliantly. I only had to card for covering with the mask once, and that was when a fencer half lost his balance going back.

The French, Austrian and GBR foilists I spoke to liked the change and found it opened up some new opportunities. One fencer in the L8 told me he was working on a new flick to the upper closer corner of the bib that could be done from outside normal fencing distance. They told me they don't target the bib especially as the risk-reward of bouncing off the mask is too high.

I disagree that tighter covering calls are the answer. Even at the top level two referees will have slightly different views on the exact moment a fencer is covering e.g. Vezzali gets treated differently from world cup to world cup. It's a carrot vs stick argument. By removing a huge incentive to drop the head, we can remove it from the sport.

I don't blame the USFA, but it is often easier to do nothing than to implement things for the better.

[Allen Evans]

I only had to card for covering with the mask once, and that was when a fencer half lost his balance going back.

How many cards were you awarding before?