No more repechage at NACs this year

[happy]

This has been mentioned in a couple threads, but I know many people who still aren't aware of the change so I thought it would be worthwhile to start a thread to at least make it known, and I suppose centralize the debate of the pros & cons.

Others have requested this, but to repeat the obvious, this should be posted on the USFA website and/or sent out in a general email, shouldn't it? Maybe it has already been communicated? If so, I missed it and I know others have.

For example, I wish I had known this before I booked travel to Des Moines because I would have made different travel arrangements. Psychologically, it's also a pretty big difference for the kids fencing - better everybody know in advance what the format is, I would think.

I think it's also interesting and important to understand the reasoning behind the change. Some posts in the BOD thread discuss it, but it's kind of a big change and worth it's own discussion, perhaps.

I have read that it was the decision of the national coaches - is there anybody who can speak for them in articulating the rationale? It would be good to know. I saw the following from oiuyt, which is helpful but by his admission not definitive:

"I believe the removal of repechage in the point weapons this season was largely, although not exclusively, designed as a trade-off that would allow time for the addition of team events nationally.

Olympic qualification is largely based upon team standings, which, in turn, are based on team performance. Team performance is influenced by individual skills, by the ability of the individuals to function well in a team environment, and by team-specific strategies. The theory is that by increasing the number of team events nationally some of those team-specific skills, strategies, and knowledge will be improved and spread, resulting in better team performance when our national team is at team world cups, zonals, or world championships."

Is this accurate? If so, what are the other reasons? It would be good for the general population to know what the high performance strategy is - it can only help in supporting the big picture goals of the organization, and at the very least know that the change was purposeful and not random. Even though we (or our children) may not be going to the Olympics, we can feel good about doing things or making changes to support those who do.

(Thanks again to the people on this board who help fill in the cracks and help communicating what's happening. I tell everybody who will listen about this forum, it's really a great resource.)

[teacup]

Other than it being noted in fencing.net threads, that there no longer will be repechage, this is where it can be found on the USFA website. (Note: it doesn't actually state no repechage.)

Go to USFA website.
Pulldown menu Competitions
Click on national events
Click on NAC A
Click on Athlete Packet
Download Athlete packet
Scroll down to Bout Format

"Cadet (U17) One round of pools; 80% promoted to direct elimination. Direct elimination bouts are 15-touch bouts in three 3-minute segments, 1-minute break between segments. In saber, there is a 1-minute break when one fencer’s score reaches 8 or 3 minutes have lapsed whichever occurs first. Points awarded to top 40% (maximum of 32) of the competitive field to the nearest quadrant."

Repeat to download other athlete packets for NAC B and C for Junior and Div I event formats.

Athlete packets for NAC D/E/F/JO's and Summer Nationals are unavailable.

[pillow]

This has been mentioned in a couple threads, but I know many people who still aren't aware of the change so I thought it would be worthwhile to start a thread to at least make it known, and I suppose centralize the debate of the pros & cons.

Others have requested this, but to repeat the obvious, this should be posted on the USFA website and/or sent out in a general email, shouldn't it? Maybe it has already been communicated? If so, I missed it and I know others have.

For example, I wish I had known this before I booked travel to Des Moines because I would have made different travel arrangements. Psychologically, it's also a pretty big difference for the kids fencing - better everybody know in advance what the format is, I would think.

I think it's also interesting and important to understand the reasoning behind the change. Some posts in the BOD thread discuss it, but it's kind of a big change and worth it's own discussion, perhaps.

I have read that it was the decision of the national coaches - is there anybody who can speak for them in articulating the rationale? It would be good to know. I saw the following from oiuyt, which is helpful but by his admission not definitive:

"I believe the removal of repechage in the point weapons this season was largely, although not exclusively, designed as a trade-off that would allow time for the addition of team events nationally.

Olympic qualification is largely based upon team standings, which, in turn, are based on team performance. Team performance is influenced by individual skills, by the ability of the individuals to function well in a team environment, and by team-specific strategies. The theory is that by increasing the number of team events nationally some of those team-specific skills, strategies, and knowledge will be improved and spread, resulting in better team performance when our national team is at team world cups, zonals, or world championships."

Is this accurate? If so, what are the other reasons? It would be good for the general population to know what the high performance strategy is - it can only help in supporting the big picture goals of the organization, and at the very least know that the change was purposeful and not random. Even though we (or our children) may not be going to the Olympics, we can feel good about doing things or making changes to support those who do.

(Thanks again to the people on this board who help fill in the cracks and help communicating what's happening. I tell everybody who will listen about this forum, it's really a great resource.)

As I posted in one of the other threads, the removal of repechage in my opinion is not a good idea.

1. Fencers and (parents) who travel to NACs and miss school and spend lots of money need to have the most "bang for the buck." Repechage allows those who lose in the round of 32 to have some more fencing against high quality competition. This is very important for those who come to NACs from areas where local fencing is of lower quality.

2. Who cares what Olympic qualifying rules are? This affects only the most elite of an already elite group and should play no role in the elimination of
repechage to make room for team events which may or may not happen. Fencers certainly can benefit from more team events, but NOT at the expense of losing a chance to make a national team because they no longer have a shot to better their individual results through repechage.

3. If we want our fencers to have an experience closer to the best European Cadet events for example, copy their format. Although Koblenz is a two day event, a complex system of repechage on day 2 allows lots of extra fencing.

4. Was repechage also eliminated to cut costs?--shorter events means less to pay for the refs, or are those costs fixed anyway--I really don't know about this.

[dberke]

1. Fencers and (parents) who travel to NACs and miss school and spend lots of money need to have the most "bang for the buck." Repechage allows those who lose in the round of 32 to have some more fencing against high quality competition. This is very important for those who come to NACs from areas where local fencing is of lower quality.

2. Who cares what Olympic qualifying rules are? This affects only the most elite of an already elite group and should play no role in the elimination of
repechage to make room for team events which may or may not happen. Fencers certainly can benefit from more team events, but NOT at the expense of losing a chance to make a national team because they no longer have a shot to better their individual results through repechage.

3. If we want our fencers to have an experience closer to the best European Cadet events for example, copy their format. Although Koblenz is a two day event, a complex system of repechage on day 2 allows lots of extra fencing.

Repechage only affects 24 people per event. By comparison, the number of people who benefit from the addition of team events is significantly larger.

I think you've overestimating the value of repechage. Most fencers will be eliminated in the pre-repechage rounds just like in a straight-DE format.

4. Was repechage also eliminated to cut costs?--shorter events means less to pay for the refs, or are those costs fixed anyway--I really don't know about this.

Shorter events does not mean less pay for the refs, they're paid the same rate per day whether they ref one bout or twenty.

As was explained elsewhere, repechage was cut to allow time to add team events, as well as to make the days end earlier so that everyone has enough time to rest for the next day.

Dan

[pillow]

Dan,

Has anyone studied the time it takes for a team event to be completed?
Will the elimination of repechage really make the day shorter, or if there is a huge field of teams, will the day become as long or longer?

Will there be team events at every NAC to justify the elimination of repechage?
If not, did anyone consider eliminating repechage from just those NACs where there are team events? If the JO field was not so large, we could have team events then,as there is no repechage already, correct?

Will there even be team events at multiple NACs this year to justify elimination of repechage this season?

Thanks

[oiuyt]

Will there even be team events at multiple NACs this year to justify elimination of repechage this season?

There is a motion before the Board for the meeting this weekend to add junior team events to NAC D and JOs.

-B

[dberke]

Has anyone studied the time it takes for a team event to be completed?
Will the elimination of repechage really make the day shorter, or if there is a huge field of teams, will the day become as long or longer?

Undoubtedly. I don't have the exact numbers, though. Team events take roughly one hour per round, so if there are 32 teams, that's 5 hours (assuming you have enough strips.) They also use fewer strips and refs than repechage events.

Will there be team events at every NAC to justify the elimination of repechage?
If not, did anyone consider eliminating repechage from just those NACs where there are team events? If the JO field was not so large, we could have team events then,as there is no repechage already, correct?

Will there even be team events at multiple NACs this year to justify elimination of repechage this season?

Brad answered those questions above... I don't know anything beyond what he said.

Dan

[goepee]

Is the No Repechage Change just for Cadet Events? Or does it apply to Junior and Div 1 Events as well? Maybe Ouiyt can verify.

[teacup]

Is the No Repechage Change just for Cadet Events? Or does it apply to Junior and Div 1 Events as well? Maybe Ouiyt can verify.

No repechage for Div I, Jr and Cadet events all weapons for this season.

Go to USFA website.
Pulldown menu Competitions
Click on national events
Click on NAC B
Click on Athlete Packet
Download Athlete packet
Scroll down to Bout Format

Repeat to download other athlete packets for NAC B and C for Junior and Div I event formats.

[oiuyt]

Maybe Ouiyt can verify.

There will be no repêchage at any national US Fencing events this season.

-B

[misha]

Somebody needs to edit Wikipedia pagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repechage

"Repechage was formerly widely used in fencing tournaments, but the majority have now abandoned it - an exception being United States Fencing Association Division I tournaments."



I think repechage was introduced during the shift from "5 touches pools all the way to the final" format to 10 touches direct elimination format.
It seems that during the switch to 15 touches DEs repechage was dropped by FIE...

Time to forget about it in USFA too

.

[pillow]

Somebody needs to edit Wikipedia pagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repechage

"Repechage was formerly widely used in fencing tournaments, but the majority have now abandoned it - an exception being United States Fencing Association Division I tournaments."



I think repechage was introduced during the shift from "5 touches pools all the way to the final" format to 10 touches direct elimination format.
It seems that during the switch to 15 touches DEs repechage was dropped by FIE...

Time to forget about it in USFA too

.

Other than the extra time it takes, why is repechage a problem? Are there aspects to repechage that are harmful to the training of our fencers?

[keith]

Other than the extra time it takes, why is repechage a problem? Are there aspects to repechage that are harmful to the training of our fencers?

A couple of reasons that revolve around the issue that with repercharge you can lose but not go home.

So collusion (or bribery) between fencers to manipulate the tableaux (not an issue if every one is doing it ).

Double chances for strong fencers who do badly in the pools. Say a top seed ends up having a brain fart in pools and ends up seeded down in the 20's rather than in the top 4. You now end up with a bout which could be the final happening in the 32 or 16. With repercharge - who cares, there is no motivation for either fencer to drive themselves to hard and risk emotional/physical exhaustion for the next round. So there may be more bouts with repercharge but they aren't proper training for the real world.

[counterattack]

Repechage only affects 24 people per event.

Dan

Wouldn't it affect 28 fencers? I thought only 4 people made the 8 directly, everyone else loses at least one.

[eac]

Double chances for strong fencers who do badly in the pools. Say a top seed ends up having a brain fart in pools and ends up seeded down in the 20's rather than in the top 4. You now end up with a bout which could be the final happening in the 32 or 16. With repercharge - who cares, there is no motivation for either fencer to drive themselves to hard and risk emotional/physical exhaustion for the next round. So there may be more bouts with repercharge but they aren't proper training for the real world.

The top-fencer-randomly-losing-pool-bouts problem is probably why the FIE seeds the top 16 seeds directly into the round of 64. We should do that too. It makes sense. (Or at least the top 8.)

[keith]

The top-fencer-randomly-losing-pool-bouts problem is probably why the FIE seeds the top 16 seeds directly into the round of 64. We should do that too. It makes sense. (Or at least the top 8.)

Not really, after all with a couple of exceptions US fencers have to get through the pools at FIE events.

[happy]

The change was announced in the USFA email sent out today - thumbs up!

[eac]

Not really, after all with a couple of exceptions US fencers have to get through the pools at FIE events.

Right, but there are two profiles of things you need to practice. There's paying close attention when fencing scrubs at an NAC so you don't screw up, and there's being better so you beat the serious dudes in your pool in a Grand Prix. I submit that the former doesn't particularly help the latter, but I could be wrong.

The point of the direct seeding thing would be to have fewer random screwed-up results because the #2 seed drops a pool bout, which is good independent of the scenario our fencers face internationally.

[keith]

Right, but there are two profiles of things you need to practice. There's paying close attention when fencing scrubs at an NAC so you don't screw up, and there's being better so you beat the serious dudes in your pool in a Grand Prix. I submit that the former doesn't particularly help the latter, but I could be wrong.

Probably not, wrong that is.

The point of the direct seeding thing would be to have fewer random screwed-up results because the #2 seed drops a pool bout, which is good independent of the scenario our fencers face internationally.

So a second round of pools at the 32/16 rather than straight DEs to the last 8?

Part of the problem is that you can't keep everyone happy. Scrubs, or at the least the up and comers want more bouts. I'd not want to assume what the actual top tier want but I'd guess it is serious bouts that can come close to the important FIE events.

At the end of the day though NACs are about the national championship and also team selection. Parachuting in the top fencers creates problems with that. The USFA is not like the FIE; they do not need to have a points system/competition format that makes fencing appear a global sport.

[nahouw]

Dan,

Has anyone studied the time it takes for a team event to be completed?

I don't know that they have, but I can tell you as a referee, I much prefer to be in team events rather than individual events because at least from my standpoint they go much faster.

Pool of 6 = 15 bouts max all at 5-4 = 135 touches
Team bout = max = 89 touches