Don't Ask Don't Tell: Obama Edition

[erooMynohtnA]

Same reason that military women doubtless would not have been pleased at the prospect of rooming or showering with straight men.

Attraction doesn't enter into it. In my day the women to be found in the Army were attractive to no one, but I daresay would not have been convinced to shower or room with guys on that basis!

I've showered with gay guys. They were a lot more uncomfortable than I was. Of course, I can't ask them to be more comfortable just as I couldn't ask you to magically be fine with it.

Same with a gay roommate. I've had one for several years now. He is far more disgusted by my exploits than I his, but I do wish that the stereotypical gay fastidiousness were universal.

[Inquartata]

So the question is: On what basis should US military policy be formed using your sensibilities as the norm rather than mine? Or to put it another way, whose sensiblities should be ignored when defining what is "just"?

[migopod]

So the question is: On what basis should US military policy be formed using your sensibilities as the norm rather than mine? Or to put it another way, whose sensiblities should be ignored when defining what is "just"?

When the military became racially integrated, there was considerable push-back from a number of quarters. Would it have been "just" to coddle the sensibilities of the pro-segregation faction at the expense of other races in the services?

[Hauptman]

So the question is: On what basis should US military policy be formed using your sensibilities as the norm rather than mine? Or to put it another way, whose sensiblities should be ignored when defining what is "just"?

I would say that we shouldn't cater to anyones sensibilities.

This is a simple matter of civil rights. Excluding homosexuals from military service is institutional discrimination which as a society we are supposedly against.

The fact that you are bothered by showering with a homosexual is your problem and not the military's. As a soldier, you are there to do a job and follow orders. And let's face it, a soldier endures far more objectionable conditions and orders than what you describe.

Personally I'm not fond of showering with other men regardless of their sexual orientation. If it was a big problem for me then it would be foolish for me to volunteer for military service.

It is also a matter of military necessity. We are losing valuable personnel with often rare skills because they happen to be gay, and someone else feels uncomfortable. IF there is a conflict then I say discharge the homophobes.

[Inquartata]

The fact that you are bothered by showering with a homosexual is your problem and not the military's. As a soldier, you are there to do a job and follow orders. And let's face it, a soldier endures far more objectionable conditions and orders than what you describe.

So, the military should also integrate men and women based on the same rationale, right?

Think of all the money we could save by not having separate barracks and shower facilities!

Of course, many women would complain about that, but hey, that's their problem, and there are worse conditions, so...

Maybe while we're at it we should integrate officers and enlisted men. Quarter 'em together, it will promote equality!

Never mind that the military by its very nature is about inequality...

[fencerchica]

So, the military should also integrate men and women based on the same rationale, right?

As we've discussed earlier in this thread, there is already a serious problem with female servicemembers being sexually harrassed by their male colleagues. Contrast that with the lack of significant numbers of same-sex sexual harrassment despite the known presence of gay men and women in the military.

Maybe while we're at it we should integrate officers and enlisted men. Quarter 'em together, it will promote equality!

What, are you trying to get extra points by combining a straw man with a red herring?

[Hauptman]

So, the military should also integrate men and women based on the same rationale, right?

Think of all the money we could save by not having separate barracks and shower facilities!

Of course, many women would complain about that, but hey, that's their problem, and there are worse conditions, so...

Maybe while we're at it we should integrate officers and enlisted men. Quarter 'em together, it will promote equality!

Never mind that the military by its very nature is about inequality...

Actually, I have no problem with integrating men and women if there is a necessity. But I don't see us excluding women from service on that basis, or did I miss that?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I'll be honest, I hated changing for gym. I hated it before I knew I liked chicks, I hated it when I knew and most people didn't, I hated it when I was out and didn't really know how well known it was. I always changed in one of the three bathroom stalls. The showers had stalls (in both locker rooms), but there wasn't enough time to take one anyway (unless you were a senior with an amazing schedule). Once I got to college, I largely got over it.

But if we imagine, instead, a system in which every urinal, every toilet, every shower, every bed-- had a door to lock. They might be small (especially rooms), but if every individual had a partition and a door for their particularly private moments.... why not integrate? (that goes for gay/straight as well as men/women)

[tchwojko]

Never mind that the military by its very nature is about inequality...

I don't think "comfort" is high up on the priority list either.

[chase]

It is also a matter of military necessity. We are losing valuable personnel with often rare skills because they happen to be gay, and someone else feels uncomfortable. IF there is a conflict then I say discharge the homophobes.

In other words: Discharge 40% of the military. Way to support our troops.

[erooMynohtnA]

In other words: Discharge 40% of the military. Way to support our troops.

I have news for you, our troops wouldn't even use you as a jockstrap.

[chase]

I have news for you, our troops wouldn't even use you as a jockstrap.

Like you would know. I know many brave soldiers personally and I normally participate in fundraisers to help them (especially now adays when their not getting any help from 0bama).

[erooMynohtnA]

Like you would know. I know many brave soldiers personally and I normally participate in fundraisers to help them (especially now adays when their not getting any help from 0bama).

Ok, you made your case. If you really want, soldiers would use you as a jockstrap, but I won't ask if you don't tell.

[Inquartata]

As we've discussed earlier in this thread, there is already a serious problem with female servicemembers being sexually harrassed by their male colleagues. Contrast that with the lack of significant numbers of same-sex sexual harrassment despite the known presence of gay men and women in the military.

How do you know there is so little of the latter? I will suggest that if there are career implications and psychic trauma for women in reporting harassments, there are much worse for a male reporting harassment by a male. Enough, I suspect, that if it happens it is not reported, but either solved by personal violence or not solved at all...

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Like you would know. I know many brave soldiers personally and I normally participate in fundraisers to help them (especially now adays when their not getting any help from 0bama).

*blinks*

Yes, how on Earth would an Army Electrician know anything about people in the Army???

[Hauptman]

In other words: Discharge 40% of the military. Way to support our troops.

Actually, Chase, I support all of our troops; not just the fundamentalist Christian types.

But if you think that 40% of our troops are homophobes, incapable of controlling their feelings while serving our country.... well, you're entitled to your opinion.

[erik_blank]

I have news for you, our troops wouldn't even use you as a jockstrap.

Arrrghhh!!! must.... wash.... image.... from..... brain...... (where's that bottle of Johny Walker?)

[Purple Fencer]

Arrrghhh!!! must.... wash.... image.... from..... brain...... (where's that bottle of Johny Walker?)

*passes Eric the brain-scrubber*