Approaching DE Bouts

[Cookeit]

Personally, I am the other type of person.
I can be the #1 seed after pools, with like a 5-0, +23, and not even make it into the top 4. I can fence touch for touch in pool bouts but in DE's I get "lazy".

I just know in the back of my mind that it makes no difference if I win a DE 15-14 or 15-0, so why put the extra effort?

Any tips to approaching DE's?

[Craig]

I copied this post from the "how do I win pool bouts" thread as this is a totally separate topic.

Craig

[Foil.Leicester]

This sounds familiar, can blaze through some poule rounds and feel I'm in with a great shot at at least making an 8 and then just feel like I run out steam or something.

Definitely recognise that feeling of laziness you get, but also sometimes feel like I don't have the repertoire for a 15 hit match.

[erooMynohtnA]

The first thing you should do isn't analyze the raw numbers of who you beat and what the score should have been. Like you said, it doesn't matter what the score was.

Cut out all the people you should have beaten 15-3 but beat 15-8 instead. They were never in striking distance. Likewise, cut out everyone you think should have beaten you 15-8, but beat you 15-3 instead. You weren't in striking distance.

I think it's best to concentrate on the range of 15-11 (and closer) victories and defeats. Are you beating people 15-11 in DEs and beating them 5-3 in pools or are you beating people 15-11 in DEs but 5-1 in pools? Are you winning 5-4 in pools but losing 15-11 in DEs?

Obviously if you're getting these types of anomolies consistently you have a problem. If you getting them only occassionally, but you're worried about the score when you should be beating a scrub worse, then that's just a perception.

[Craig]

Among fencers closer in ability, there is more of an ebb and flow to a DE bout where one fencer starts out with a successful tactic, then the other fencer solves that problem and has some success.

I'm not up on my theory and study of DE bouts to really pick apart or designate the number of phases. (Maybe Jason has something he can share here?)

I've often seen fencers who start out great and then go on an 0-3 run halfway through the bout, lose their momentum, and never make the changes necessary to go back the other way.

There are also those really insidious losses where it's score 1 touch, lose the next 2. Just enough success to tempt you into trying that tactic again because you can go just a little faster/harder/stronger even though the odds are against you.

Craig

[Zhais]

I don't quite have the same mentality, but I have the same (or worse) luck with DEs...

6th seed out of pools in D2ME at Atlanta, lost first DE.
1st seed out of pools in D2ME at Natl's, lost first DE.

It's all about momentum for me I think. Need to work on keeping my resolve even after losing a few touches

[telkanuru]

Pools are a pretty bad indicator of DE performance. Pools are really about being right 5 times, while DEs are about figuring out and working with your opponent's abilities. There are people that I can never beat in 5 touches that I can pretty regularly destroy 15-8 or so. Pools tend to favor people with one trick.

It's not about momentum; it's the ability to figure out quickly that something will no longer work and do something new that will.

[tbryan]

Any tips to approaching DE's?

You might also want to check out this thread on pools vs. DEs.

[Hauptman]

Wasn't there a study recently that showed that the first person to reach 8 or 9 points in a DE was most likely to win? I'm pretty sure I saw that posted here at one time.

If this is true then what does that mean for 5 touch bouts? It would seem like the results of a 5 versus 15 touch bout are very different.

More on topic though, my guess is that the better fencers take it very easy in the pools (possibly because of overconfidence) and may end up losing some of those bouts because of it; in a 15 touch bout you have time to make up for early mistakes.

You may also do well in pools because you bring an alertness or intensity from the start that others don't warm-up to until later. I often surprise fencers in pools because they underestimate me or I bring some stylistic tactics that they don't have time to adapt to until too late in a 5 touch bout.

Finally, there is stamina and athleticism... I am far from a natural athlete and have some medical issues to deal with including middle-age; 15 touch bouts seem an eternity to me.

[piste off]

Wasn't there a study recently that showed that the first person to reach 8 or 9 points in a DE was most likely to win? I'm pretty sure I saw that posted here at one time.

That was the study by Aladar Kogler.

One of the other big findings (and the one that is most stressed to me by the guy that helped him with the number crunching) is the 3 rule.

If at any time during the bout your opponent gets three touches in a row alarm bells should go off and you should CHANGE. There was a strong relationship between gaps of 3 occurring in a bout and the eventual winner.

Also, assuming time does not run out first and there is no action awarding a card, the person that gets the last touch in a bout generally wins (this rule holds up in both pool and DE bouts).

R-

[Sancho]

Personally, I am the other type of person.
I can be the #1 seed after pools, with like a 5-0, +23, and not even make it into the top 4. I can fence touch for touch in pool bouts but in DE's I get "lazy".

I just know in the back of my mind that it makes no difference if I win a DE 15-14 or 15-0, so why put the extra effort?

Any tips to approaching DE's?

Lazy in not the word. "Ass kicked" is more like it.
Remember in school the old bell curve thingie. Well, try to approach the peak of the curve as THE DE's. Pools are for warming up your body and brain. DE's are for killing. You can learn footwork ,bladework etc, but the ability to fight is pretty much up to you. Practice that on club time. Do as many 15 touch bouts as you can with people that are better than you- and try to crush them. You must be able to turn a DE into a comfort zone. The place you like to live and kill. When you become top pooch at your club find a better one. Fencing dinks you can squash only leads to inbreeding and a false sense of your abilities.

[remistress]

One idea my coach gave me was to view a regular DE like they do in Youth Tournaments (best two out of three). It helps if you are doing well to not lose your focus if you get too far ahead (since you mentally reset the score every five touches). This is just a mentality to *try on*; by no means does this work for everyone.

As others have said there is quite a difference between pools and DE's. The differences between the two are many. One you have a very short period of time to adapt, the other you have more. One is at the beginning of the tournament, the other is at the end. (People being warmed up vs. not warmed up...or even people not having watched much of your fencing, to having watched you fence other people). One the implications of losing are less so than the other. (Some better fencers save their good stuff for later and spend minimal effort in pools). As the last poster said, you have to be really ready to fight.

Good luck!

[Superscribe]

More on topic though, my guess is that the better fencers take it very easy in the pools (possibly because of overconfidence) and may end up losing some of those bouts because of it; in a 15 touch bout you have time to make up for early mistakes.

I think most of the best fencers go into the pools like a "shark", read: ready to chew things apart in the the most savage way possible.

Getting a high seed can make it easier to get to the final position, provided you don't suck it up in a DE.

[telkanuru]

Depends on the tournament, really.

[Superscribe]

I thought because of the nature of OP's post we were talking about tournaments the fencer was trying to do well in. No reason to lament about doing poorly if it's a tourney you don't care about.

[GuyW]

That was the study by Aladar Kogler.

Link?
.

[GuyW]

Simple-mindedly, it seems to me that the appropriate tactics for pool v DE is related to the fencers' relative skills.

If you think that you really ought to finish mid-pack, then good pool results will prevent you having to fence one of the top fencers in your first (and last) DE.

Conversely, if you're such a hotshot that you can burn through the field to top 4, who cares what you do in pools?

However, a scheme that accepts lackluster pool results is suspect to me...

Mmmm...."Kill 'em all - let the refs sort 'em out".... (in the best sporting sense, of course)
.

[tchwojko]

However, a scheme that accepts lackluster pool results is suspect to me...

I don't fence as often as I'd like, so I'm not likely to win many sufficiently interesting tournaments. Since my goals are simply to fence "better", I just want to fence in as many quality bouts as possible. It doesn't matter much to me if I fence a top 4 seed at the beginning of the DEs or at the end.

(I'd much rather it be later than earlier, I just won't freak out about a poor pool result.)

Being spectacularly inconsistent, I've had days where my best finishes are after very poor pool results, and days where I get knocked out early by a very good A who didn't take the pools seriously.

[Cookeit]

One idea my coach gave me was to view a regular DE like they do in Youth Tournaments (best two out of three). It helps if you are doing well to not lose your focus if you get too far ahead (since you mentally reset the score every five touches). This is just a mentality to *try on*; by no means does this work for everyone.

Can you clarify this?
I started fencing at 14-15 so I never really did any youth tournaments.

[erooMynohtnA]

Youth DEs are three bouts to five. You need to win two of those five touch bouts to advance. Regardless of what the score was in the first bout, you're reset at 0-0 in the next (although someone will be up one bout at that point).