Approaching DE Bouts

[Grasshopper]

Can you clarify this?
I started fencing at 14-15 so I never really did any youth tournaments.

If you started fencing at 14-15, I'm afraid the bout is already over. Proceed to shower room.

[RkfdFencer]

... but in DE's I get "lazy".

The obvious answer is "Don't get lazy."

I just know in the back of my mind that it makes no difference if I win a DE 15-14 or 15-0, so why put the extra effort?

The reason to put in the effort is to make top 4, also obvious.

Not really trying to be snarky, I have fenced 'lazy' as well and it can be hard to maintain focus over the course of a long day.

You need to put yourself back in the mindset/attitude of the pools - win, win early and by giving up as few touches as possible. Yes, you have more room for error, but getting lazy will actually erode overall level of focus and taking longer to win a bout will burn more physical energy, leaving you in a tougher spot for later DE's.

Head games to play with yourself - each touch like it is the only/winning touch or the 'be first to the fives' already mentioned.

[Gculk]

Op, the same thing happened at my last tournament, in foil and epee. I figure it was a fatigue thing. I did well in sabre, on the first day, and did well in the pools the second day. I failed miserably in DEs in foil and epee in the second day because I was tired and couldn't make myself go, and was distracted by sore muscles and so didn't think clearly on what I should have been doing.

One thing I'm going to try next tournament is to take it easy in the pools. Not as in not take them seriously, but as in not take them by the throat and throttle the living... throat out of them. I usually fence hard, throw everything I've got at it, just because I love it. This means that in a few hours, I don't have much to throw. Dig?

[erooMynohtnA]

If you fence the entire time and overtime in every bout in a pool of 9, you're fencing 32 minutes. Do yourself a favor and fence hard in pools. The easier DEs will more than make up for it.

[Inquartata]

Yeah. Fatigue in fencing is IMO more a matter of hydration and nutrition than actually being physically spent---it's not that kind of sport...

[Hauptman]

Yeah. Fatigue in fencing is IMO more a matter of hydration and nutrition than actually being physically spent---it's not that kind of sport...

Is it that simple? Doesn't fatigue depend on many factors?

For example, an A ranked fencer is fencing a D ranked fencer in a DE bout and the score is tied 6-6. Are both fencers equally fatigued?

IMO, not likely. More than likely the A has expended relatively little effort so far, and the D has probably been going all out. So fatigue could play an important factor.

[Inquartata]

Fatigue and every expenditure are not the same thing. The one may lead to the other in some sorts of activities---this is why smaller cage fighters can sometimes beat much larger ones, and maybe why Ali beat Foreman---but fencing is not that sort of activity. There are ample opportunities to rest and recharge between periods of exertion, and unless one is really out of shape the average competition doesn't consume so much energy that that by itself is a factor.


IMO.

[theLuz]

I don't quite have the same mentality, but I have the same (or worse) luck with DEs...

6th seed out of pools in D2ME at Atlanta, lost first DE.
1st seed out of pools in D2ME at Natl's, lost first DE.

epee is more luck and that stuff can happen

Treat the DE like a chess game: you have an opening game (determine what works and what their reactions are)
a middle game (fence to get touches but don't give away what you learned and you will use later)
and an ending game (use what you learned in the opening game to make sure you get the last touch)

Our sport is simple and elagant.

[epeelion]

Yeah. Fatigue in fencing is IMO more a matter of hydration and nutrition than actually being physically spent---it's not that kind of sport...

I do see what you mean, and it's often true that people don't eat and drink enough during tournaments. However (and I am in pretty good physical shape), a full tournament can still be extremely exhausting (the mental fatigue plays in, I've noticed, since I fence a high number of bouts in practice and am not as tired). Fatigue is definitely quite mental as well, but I don't think the physical side can be ignored.

[Inquartata]

I'll allow that it may be different in epee than in sabre. The few times I have fenced epee I found it tiring just to hold the weapon out there for the length of a whole bout. Maybe that was because my arm wasn't used to it---I would hope that epeeists build up the endurance they need for that in the right muscles. So I'll retract the statement and confine it to sabre fencing, which after all if the only kind about which I know jack.

In sabre it's a lot of bursts of very vehement exertion rather than long periods of more, ah, sedate action. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I felt that I had "run out of gas" in a tournament, and those were traceable to things like altitude and dehydration. That's over 26 years of fencing, and I'm 52 now.

[epeelion]

Interesting. I feel pretty tired after fencing sabre, so I think it's likely just due to differences between the weapons. I don't get tired holding the weapon so much, but epee does take some strength, so over the course of the day it takes its toll. Not to mention that, as little as you may like it, bouncing takes energy.

I do agree that proper hydration and nutrition are often a big issue. Oh dear lord, did I just agree with Inq?

[Catseye]

Ditto on the exhaustion when fencing sabre, which is very different from the feeling of physically tired I get from messing around with foil. I agree with idea that poor nutrition/hydration, lack of sleep are big contributors, but I'm pretty sure all the adrenaline and energy output from pools strikes the killing blow. I've finished more than one DE with my hands shaking and unable to sign the score sheet

[GuyW]

If you fence the entire time and overtime in every bout in a pool of 9, you're fencing 32 minutes. Do yourself a favor and fence hard in pools. The easier DEs will more than make up for it.

...especially if you can finish in 2 periods instead of 3....

[Cappy]

OP, it seems to me you just need to have the mindset that you won't give up a single touch, no matter what. Even though individual touches, in a sense, are less valuable in a DE.

I've noticed myself get lazy and give up touches. I can't think of a bout I lost because of that, but I've definitely let it get close, and I get really irritated with myself when that happens. I eventually decided to treat every touch like the first. Even if it's 14-5 I fight as hard as I can for the next touch. Part of me thinks applying that much effort must waste energy that I could use later, but I think it saves energy in the long run because the bout is over quicker.

Also, don't underestimate an opponent, and don't get distracted by your imagination of what the outcome will be -- whether you'll win this bout or where you'll place in the tournament. You have to be completely focused on the moment at hand.

I'm not a terribly good fencer, but I think I know what the OP's experiencing and it's all about distancing yourself from the final result of the bout and striving for every touch.

[NeilNZ]

I'm not a terribly good fencer, but I think I know what the OP's experiencing and it's all about distancing yourself from the final result of the bout and striving for every touch.

Exactly. The other day in a semi final I was down 9-14, I saw the error of my ways and fought for every touch and ended up winning 15-14.
Pools are for trying to get seeded high, to make your path through the DE easier.

[Inquartata]

I'm pretty sure all the adrenaline and energy output from pools strikes the killing blow. I've finished more than one DE with my hands shaking and unable to sign the score sheet

Kids these days, weak as water!

[TrainingDummy]

Ditto on the exhaustion when fencing sabre, which is very different from the feeling of physically tired I get from messing around with foil. I agree with idea that poor nutrition/hydration, lack of sleep are big contributors, but I'm pretty sure all the adrenaline and energy output from pools strikes the killing blow. I've finished more than one DE with my hands shaking and unable to sign the score sheet

Been there, and the sweaty glove doesn't help!