2009-2010 ROC Update

[mgriff]

A couple of news items on the ROC:

--Peet's finished the conversion of last year's NOC FRED sub-domain into this year's ROC sub-domain, so there is now a one-stop information source for this year's Regional Open Circuit at: http://usfaroc.askfred.net

--The Rose, the Sobel, and Duel are now taking entries. The Early Bird discount for the Rose ends on Sunday, August 9.

--There is now an ROC Blog set up at the USFA website, so we'll be able to post news items and entry deadline notices there.

In case you missed the earlier threads or the ROC info table at SN, the tournaments scheduled for the 2009-2010 ROC season are:

• Rose Condon Memorial, September 26-27, 2009, Shreveport, LA
  
• Steve Sobel ROC Tournament, October 3-4, 2009, Wayne, NJ
  
• Remenyik Open, October 17-18, 2009, Evanston, IL
  
• Duel in the Desert, January 8-10, 2010, Las Vegas, NV
  
• Battle in Seattle, January 29-31, 2010, Seattle, WA
  
• Alice B. Memorial, February 6-7, 2010, Houston, TX
  
• Jeff Wolfe Long Island Challenge, April 10-11, 2010, Rocky Point, NY
  
• Danny Bukantz Open, May 15-16, 2010, Maplewood, NJ

The Regional Open Circuit is intended to increase competitive opportunities for Division I-A and developing recreational fencers by recognizing and promoting strong regional tournaments. The top 10% (with a minimum of 4) of finishers in each event qualify for the Division I-A Championship at Summer Nationals.

[dberke]

FYI, I'm hoping to have the registration for the Battle in Seattle on AskFRED sometime next week.

Dan

[Mr Epee]

The Regional Open Circuit is intended to increase competitive opportunities for Division I-A and developing recreational fencers by recognizing and promoting strong regional tournaments.

Really? That's great. I love the idea (in all seriousness).

Why and specifically how?

Please feel free to be explicit.

[piste off]

Really? That's great. I love the idea (in all seriousness).

Why and specifically how?

Please feel free to be explicit.

Before NACs existed, the backbone of American fencing was large regional tournaments like the ROCs, although they were not a formal system. You basically had those large comps and Nationals. They were pretty common, it seemed, and you could attend many, many per season.

When NACs came on the scene, the regional tournaments virtually evaporated as fencers started to concentrate their efforts (and resources) against the NACs, as those are the ones that counted.

For fencers that had limited means, traveling to National events exclusively was an expensive proposition. I witnessed a lot of good potential lost as a consequence.

Ones that were developing basically had less opportunity to hone their skills in real high-level competition (as I’m sure you will agree, there is a big difference between training and comps).

I always felt a combination would be perfect, and it seems that the growth of fencing is now allowing a resurgence these regionals.

I’m less interested in the fact that these are formalized (i.e. ROCs), but if they give more opportunity for quality (i.e. A4) comps than it can only be beneficial.

That probably does not answer your question specifically (apologies)… But I am really excited about the ROCs and what they can add to the US fencing scene. BTW - I plan on ensuring that everyone in my network goes to these events.

R-

[Jason]

I always felt a combination would be perfect, and it seems that the growth of fencing is now allowing a resurgence these regionals.

This has nothing to do with the ROC, however. With the exception of the event in Long Island, all of last seasons "NOC" events were preexisting successful events. While I'm sure Mission Fencing was glad to get some free advertising from the USFA for one of their events, the turnout wasn't anywhere at the level of the other events.

I, too, am extremely curious to hear an answer to Mr. Epee's question.

[eac]

ROC designation means that even though I've never heard of the tournament, or maybe have heard of it but don't know whether it's worthwhile, the USFA has heard of it and has decided that it's basically one of the best 8 regional competitions every year, both in terms of competition and refereeing. I trust this assessment over some random person saying oh yeah i herd dat wuz good. And, I can go on FRED and check last year's results for how strong the tournament ended up being, but a) I have no guarantee of year-to-year consistency, and b) I have no idea of the referee quality.

So, for that reason, I'd travel farther to ROCs than to other tournaments that outwardly appear just as good, and I'd prefer them to other equivalent tournaments at the same distance.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

This has nothing to do with the ROC, however. With the exception of the event in Long Island, all of last seasons "NOC" events were preexisting successful events. While I'm sure Mission Fencing was glad to get some free advertising from the USFA for one of their events, the turnout wasn't anywhere at the level of the other events.

I, too, am extremely curious to hear an answer to Mr. Epee's question.

Agreed IMHO Linkmeyer is bigger, and older for Men's Epee than most NO/ROC's - I'm kind of glad it is not one, so the price of the entry has not gone up.

[piste off]

This has nothing to do with the ROC, however. With the exception of the event in Long Island, all of last seasons "NOC" events were preexisting successful events. While I'm sure Mission Fencing was glad to get some free advertising from the USFA for one of their events, the turnout wasn't anywhere at the level of the other events.

I, too, am extremely curious to hear an answer to Mr. Epee's question.

I wouldn't base any conclusion on last year's ROCs. I'm basing what I said on what I see going forward, and what I know is the strategy for these events (as communicated to me).

In our area which includes the Steve Sobel, Jeff Wolfe and Danny Bukantz, these events will be taken to another level (I don't think the SS existed, so this may be entirely incremental). Either this year or next as awareness grows. There are still a lot of fencers that don't even know they exist, and that will change this year (I'll be actively pushing that in my area and have a very large network).

For example, I'd be shocked if the NJ epee events don't exceed over 100 fencers within two years (should happen this year, although the SS is happening pretty early) and that will include a large portion of the best fencers in the country. The Jeff Wolfe will no doubt be much bigger than last year, although it suffers more from a location standpoint.

The USFA plans to have more ROCs over time (up to 12 or so as I understand). Perhaps there might not be a benefit to existing tournaments, but newer ones, or ones that historically had low numbers, will become big events.

As far as the purpose, it was told to me that the ROCs will serve as a qualification path to the Div 1-As and that eventually sectionals will be gone. It was also felt that more had to be done for developing fencers without adding more at the national level (for obvious reasons).

I don't really care about the merits/end-game of that strategy, what I care about is the opportunity of a number of high quality events being added within driving distance. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. And that isn't happening fast enough by itself, despite the growth in fencing. If this serves as a mechanism to push that along, it will be great for US fencing.

R-

[BrodeurNJD30]

This has nothing to do with the ROC, however. With the exception of the event in Long Island, all of last seasons "NOC" events were preexisting successful events. While I'm sure Mission Fencing was glad to get some free advertising from the USFA for one of their events, the turnout wasn't anywhere at the level of the other events.

I, too, am extremely curious to hear an answer to Mr. Epee's question.

Pre-quals did not push down qualification spots, nor did it matter how many people showed up because it was a hard four. Instead we had in WS 7 girls on the JR points list, 3 of whom were close to making a world team. The No. 1 Ranked vet 50 WS fencer. in WF we had the 15th, 39th ranked in senior. 11th, 35th in Junior

In MS we had the winner of the Div 1A points list, a memer of the el salavdorian team and fencers on numerous points lsit and top recruits

In MF had former national champions, world cup fencers who have had international success and multiple members of the senior points lsit.

Epee had numerous fencers having at one point junior and senior points.

For referees we had Atillo Tass, Greg Dillworth, Alan Kuever, Luther Clement, Attila Luckas. We hired referees from all over the northeast and from various clubs on the island.

We did more then get some free press.

Jeff Wolfe who named the NOC after was a former world coach, produced countless scholarships for students in an area not known for success stories.

We developed and are continuing working an innovative system where referees use smart phones instead of clipboards pens and paper to update the score which fencers could see on the walls in realtime. Eventually we will run an entirley "green" tournament. This system also allows people to get streaming updates of individual bouts from the comforts of home. Grounded strips for the epee and most of the foil, with Score and time machines on each strip. On those there were also repeaters on each side.

We do and will continue to run tournaments as they should be run, with a high quality of referees, the best technology, the most appropriate of venues and a respect for the fencer which many tournaments have seem to forgotten.

Just cause we didnt have A4s and 100 people doesnt mean this event was not a success.

-Dennis

[aamct2]

This is a side note about the ROC's. It's been something I've been digging at the ROC committee about for some time, on behalf of my students, because they've refused to give a decisive public answer until recently.

From the ROC AskFred subdomain's FAQ:

Are names printed on uniforms required for ROC events?

Yes, names on uniforms are required for the 2009–2010 ROC season. See Section 2.6 of the USFA Athlete Handbook, Equipment Requirements for Domestic Tournaments, for specifics.

Right now this is the only place online that states this. So if you're like me and have some fencers who are new to the competition scene, make sure they get their uniform stenciled if they're planning on competing in a ROC!

Cheers,

~aamct2

[piste off]

Just cause we didnt have A4s and 100 people doesnt mean this event was not a success.

-Dennis

Dennis,

This was the first year for the event. There was little awareness (e.g. not everyone frequents f.net), and I don't think people fully understood that the event could help them to qualify for DIV1As (I heard several people after the tournament who did not go comment that they would have gone if they knew that).

That can change this year, and I do believe you can be an A4 this year, growing over time to over 100 (at least in epee, but I am assuming the others can work the same way).

First though, you have two things working against you 1. Location and 2. Entry Fees (all the ROCs are pretty pricey). We can't change the 1st, but if the comp is compelling enough people will make the trek. I don't see that as insurmountable based on what I know about the fencers in the area and how they think (if you build it right, they will come).

Regarding entry fees, you have to make it worthwhile (obviously). For those seeking DIV1A qualification that will be easy. Some will see those guys going and won’t blink at dropping a little more coin for the opportunity to fence some good competition. What has to happen though is you have to get innovative in making it interesting for the rest. This could include prizes at stake, and some mechanism that allow anyone in the comp to win something (an example would be equipment gift certificates for the top B, C, D and U fencer… Top Vet, most 5-0 wins in pools etc.). That would allow everyone to justify the extra money.

With a little more marketing, creativity and networking (I promise to do my part, and can assure you that the top DC-to-Boston epee fencers/clubs/teams will know about it) it really won’t be hard to get up to the A4 and + 100 level. You have an incredible facility and the tournament was top notch. I look at the ROCs as potentially the beginning of a strong regional system that we need to aid in development, and I would not look at last year as an indication of anything.

R-

[Piste_Pearl]

A couple of news items on the ROC:

The top 10% (with a minimum of 4) of finishers in each event qualify for the Division I-A Championship at Summer Nationals.

Questions, since this came up last season. What happen if a portion of the top/10% are non-US citizens?

Do those qualifying spots bump down to the next US Citizen(s) in the final rankings?

If they do fine, if they don't that's fine too so long as a rule is set, clearly stated, and followed.

Thanks!

[KD5MDK]

No they do not.

[ivlobane]

I'm surprised to not see the Cherry Blossom here.

[Allen Evans]

A The Regional Open Circuit is intended to increase competitive opportunities for Division I-A and developing recreational fencers by recognizing and promoting strong regional tournaments. The top 10% (with a minimum of 4) of finishers in each event qualify for the Division I-A Championship at Summer Nationals.

Why and specifically how?

Mr. E: is this really the question you want to ask? I suspect that you have a bigger question behind this.

[Allen Evans]

I'm surprised to not see the Cherry Blossom here.

The ROC is a bid process in which certain requirements have to be met by tournaments. One of the requirements is that mens' and women's events have to be seperated, and if I recall, the CB organizers did not want to do this.

[ivlobane]

Ah, ok... I though there are already separate events. And who are the CB organizers exactly? I know one of them, but not sure who the rest are... Also, lets not forget there is the Amazon for the ladies, the last one was very strong...

[fdad]

Questions, since this came up last season. What happen if a portion of the top/10% are non-US citizens?

Do those qualifying spots bump down to the next US Citizen(s) in the final rankings?

If they do fine, if they don't that's fine too so long as a rule is set, clearly stated, and followed.

Thanks!

If I recall, it is simple top 10%, autos are not skipped either.

[ivlobane]

Another thing I have reservations about is the incentive to fence the ROC. A qualification to the Div1A? Not at all sure that would get me out of bed and into a 3 hour drive. What if you got 200 National points for 1st? Big difference. Ah, yes, but that would make NACs bigger. Not if the qualifications are to have 200 points to begin with, and/or an equivalent in foreign points. Possible result: much stronger regional events and smaller NACs. A "C" rating is really not enough to qualify for a world class event like a NAC imho... Everyone knows ratings fluctuate from area to area, I've seen A's from a lot of places get eaten by D's from New York for example.

[downunder]

a world class event like a NAC

Sorry?