Heart and Mind make the difference in fencing: a neat test by Maestro Giancarlo Toràn

[gladius]

Maestro Giancarlo Toràn wrote an article on Themis, a specialized Italian quarterly for lawyers and people in the legal profession comparing the duel which takes place in a court of law between the defense and prosecution teams under the supervision of the judge and jury, and a fencing "duel." The article appeared also on Schermaonline.

I took the liberty to edit the original article and retain only his considerations about fencing. Main reason is that I'm not a lawyer (nor a fencer) and I don't want to have to enter discussions of why the comparison of the legal duel and a fencing bout is or is not appropriate.

What I admire about Maestro Toràn is that he knows how to explain fencing fundamental principles, rules, and traditions in a simple and clear manner which anybody can understand. Some of his points:

• there is only one kind of fencing
• fencing cannot be reduced to a collection of techniques
• physical strength is secondary to heart and mind
• tactics (second intention) is essential
• there is no fencing without the trinity of tempo, distance, and speed
• the role of ROW and of the referee in conventional weapons and in épée

Maestro Toràn presents also an interesting test to show how easy it is to be manipulated by using a simple experiment of "mental fencing" (fencing without a weapon).

I think you might enjoy all this just as much as I did.

http://www.schermaonline.com/scherma...ticle&sid=2466

Last, but not least, the role of fencing in management training is something new which can and should help promote the art and sport of fencing off the strip.

I thank Maestro Toràn for sharing his thoughts with us.

[dberke]

I'm not a lawyer (nor a fencer)

Are you just a fencing groupie? Why would a non-fencer frequent Fencing.net?

Dan

[Coldfire]

He is probably the wallet for a fencer.

[bigfirststep]

I'm not a lawyer (nor a fencer)


And I was beginning to wonder why your posts were consistently thoughtful, constructive entries, without insults or invective.

Now we know...

[KD5MDK]

He is probably the wallet for a fencer.

A very good fencer.

[gladius]

Are you just a fencing groupie? Why would a non-fencer frequent Fencing.net?

Dan

Did you miss this part in the article (third paragraph, second sentence)?

...we forget what the old Maestri said, "there is only one kind of fencing" .Whether you do it with a foil, epee, or saber, with a stick or with katana, with fists or with words, fencing cannot be reduced to a collection of techniques.

I took this as a valid statement made by an expert for me to intrude in this forum since I use at least one of the weapon listed and I've done quite a bit of kick boxing, among other sports, so I don't get lost in following what's going on on the strip and off the strip.

I also have, as others have noticed, quite an investment in this sport and I am a stakeholder. I share information I feel people may find useful and express my opinions when I see fit. Just like you and everybody else.

[dberke]

Did you miss this part in the article (third paragraph, second sentence)?

...we forget what the old Maestri said, "there is only one kind of fencing" .Whether you do it with a foil, epee, or saber, with a stick or with katana, with fists or with words, fencing cannot be reduced to a collection of techniques.

I took this as a valid statement made by an expert for me to intrude in this forum since I use at least one of the weapon listed and I've done quite a bit of kick boxing, among other sports, so I don't get lost in following what's going on on the strip and off the strip.

I also have, as others have noticed, quite an investment in this sport and I am a stakeholder. I share information I feel people may find useful and express my opinions when I see fit. Just like you and everybody else.

Apparently I forgot to put a in my original post...

Dan

[Inquartata]

As an ardent and cunning old guy who has been beaten too many times by strong but inexperienced young guys fencing desultorily at best, I would have to look askance at point #3...

[Grasshopper]

He forgot one point:


*there is no saber without the holy trinity of flunging, screaming, and fist-pumping

[zéphirin]

As an ardent and cunning old guy who has been beaten too many times by strong but inexperienced young guys fencing desultorily at best, I would have to look askance at point #3...

Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. (Oscar Wilde)

If as a fencer you have "been beaten too many times by strong but inexperienced young guys fencing desultorily at best," instead of looking askance at point #3, wince at yourself when looking in the mirror and try to learn from your "tactical" mistakes of too much ardor and way too little cunning.

[tchwojko]

As an ardent and cunning old guy who has been beaten too many times by strong but inexperienced young guys fencing desultorily at best, I would have to look askance at point #3...

It can be irritating to fence people too inexperienced to notice that you're tricking them.

[dcrocket]

It can be irritating to fence people too inexperienced to notice that you're tricking them.

When the subtleties are lost on your opponent it is better to simply beat them into submission.

[Inquartata]

It can be irritating to fence people too inexperienced to notice that you're tricking them.

Indeed.

Oh, well, at least it's not fatal any more...

[Inquartata]

When the subtleties are lost on your opponent it is better to simply beat them into submission.

But I fence sabre, not epee.

[dcrocket]

But I fence sabre, not epee.

There is still time...repent, for the kingdom of epee is upon us!

[Inquartata]

Those little bruises look like the Mark of the Beast to me.

[Sins of the Fleche]

Those little bruises look like the Mark of the Beast to me.

I counter that those screeching, flailing charges you sabre-folk do looks like the mark of the insane to me.

[BrianH]

Gladius,

Thank you for posting the article; I enjoyed reading it.

I tell my students the first day of class that I will teach them to lie; I hope they don't take that talent into the rest of their lives.

[gladius]

Gladius,

Thank you for posting the article; I enjoyed reading it.

I tell my students the first day of class that I will teach them to lie; I hope they don't take that talent into the rest of their lives.

Glad you found it interesting and I will convey your appreciation to the author.

I don't presume to tell you what you should teach your students, but Maestro Toran will be the first to say that to influence/manipulate the opponent and the referee is neither lying nor cheating. I hope this is clear.

Also, at the highest level of fencing, you get there and you stay there because you fence at the limit of the rules, testing as it were their limits all the time. This is what makes the role of the referee so important and it is vital for the top fencer not only to study his opponent and adapt and change, but also to study and adapt to the referee and change his fencing accordingly.

The sport of fencing, the way I understand it, is a three party interaction between the two fencers and with the referee. Not to take advantage of any weakness of the other two, within commonly accepted rules, is foolish. How much and how far to push becomes in the end a matter of personal ethics.

[Grasshopper]

Glad you found it interesting and I will convey your appreciation to the author.

I don't presume to tell you what you should teach your students, but Maestro Toran will be the first to say that to influence/manipulate the opponent and the referee is neither lying nor cheating. I hope this is clear.

Also, at the highest level of fencing, you get there and you stay there because you fence at the limit of the rules, testing as it were their limits all the time. This is what makes the role of the referee so important and it is vital for the top fencer not only to study his opponent and adapt and change, but also to study and adapt to the referee and change his fencing accordingly.

The sport of fencing, the way I understand it, is a three party interaction between the two fencers and with the referee. Not to take advantage of any weakness of the other two, within commonly accepted rules, is foolish. How much and how far to push becomes in the end a matter of personal ethics.

I think what Brian is getting at is that many beginning students don't realize how much deception is part of the game of fencing. To be a good fencer, by definition you need to deceive your opponent over and over again. Beginners sometimes think that it is all about technique...