NAC B - Kansas City, 2009

[gladius]

Wow, if that's all you noticed, I don't think you're paying much attention.

Here you are too judgmental, don't you think? You feel that there is a substantial improvement and I don't. It would not be the first time that two people have different opinions about something. This does not mean that you are a keen observer of things and I am casual at best. What you and I think is important are different things and issues, and this is why--I hope--we debate.

Price increases are hardly unique to the USFA. You're also paying more for the same gasoline, hotels, and airlines... and probably getting less service than you used to from the airlines.

I beg to differ (once again) both in terms of the price hike and the service provided.

Also, let me remind you that attending NACs is voluntary. If you don't think you get a product worth the price of entry, then don't go. Instead, attend all those events in Europe that are supposedly priced so reasonably...

This is difficult to reply to politely. But if you think so, I hope you are in the minority and that the USFA does not hire you as customer relations manager

Also, I think parents often forget that sometimes you have to make choices in life. Sure, it sucks, but we can't always have everything. If I want to attend a NAC that happens to fall right at the same time as a critical deadline at work, I'm going to have to choose... which comes first, a fencing event, or a paycheck? Similarly, what is more importanat - your fencer's grades/schoolwork, or a fencing event? Each person has to decide that for themselves.

In my opinion you ignore the core of the problem which is the lack of responsiveness on the part of the USFA to an issue affecting a segment of its members. I say responsiveness, not solution of the problem which I agree is not an easy one.

I'm not going to defend Stay & Play since we're in agreement about what a disaster that was.

Glad to see that we agree on this one and the disaster it was.

But what you've termed "Study & Play" hardly rises to the same level of crisis. Stay & Play was an outrage because it took away freedom of choice - in the case of "Study & Play", you're actually being forced to make a choice.

I really don't understand what you are trying to say. My S&P II was a pure play with letters, a pun if you will. I try every now and then to interject some lame humor...

Now every debate should have a time limit or else we are boring the audience. Let's conclude that on the issue of SAT NACs overlap and the way the USFA has handled or not handled the problem, we agree to disagree.

[JEC]

Dan,

Why are you defending USFA position of continuing with the scheduling an overlap with the SAT for NAC-C, AND not avoiding to Junior events on Saturday for NAC-B? Junior fencers (particularly WF and ME) are been placed in the situation of having "to choose" between fencing and academics. I don't think it is a conspiracy (as discussed in the older thread), but a lack of good judgement as to what is important to Junior USFA members.

Sure, in the past 10 years that I have attended NACs, SNs, and RYCs. I have seen several positive changes starting with major increases in attendance, better strips, and a greater number of vendors. But in the good old days, we had in the proposed scheduling calendar, the SAT dates to remind the committee of avoiding conflicts between SATs and NACs. We also had other timings, crossovers (for saber), no visor masks, and higher quality german parts. Granted the latter 4 are not because of USFA, but all were changes seen at NACs and SNs.

It's too late, but I hope the organization leadership learns that this is a serious complaint of a concern parent. I know that many other parents of Junior fencers feel that way too, and if it continues to occur, it will be a recurrent issue raised a new set of parents.

JEC

[dberke]

Why are you defending USFA position of continuing with the scheduling an overlap with the SAT for NAC-C, AND not avoiding to Junior events on Saturday for NAC-B? Junior fencers (particularly WF and ME) are been placed in the situation of having "to choose" between fencing and academics. I don't think it is a conspiracy (as discussed in the older thread), but a lack of good judgement as to what is important to Junior USFA members.

My original intent was to attempt to dispel the notion that the USFA is not taking the needs of the junior fencers into consideration. There have been comments in this thread that seem to imply that the USFA is intentionally choosing to ignore the issues, or isn't listening to the concerns of the parents. I think that's an unfair accusation. I've tried to point out that they have to also take into account other factors (logistics being one of them) and that they can't please everyone.

As has been said (and confirmed), the SAT dates were moved after the USFA had picked their dates (and entered into contracts with the venues.) So they can't be faulted for that.

Now, the question is which events do you put on which days... with six junior events, one could argue that they should put them on Friday, Sunday, and Monday. Why didn't they do that? I believe it has in large part to do with the logistics of running these events.

While NAC B is most unforutnate for ME and WF, those fencing in the other four events have less of a problem. If they had chosen to put JWS and JWE on Saturday, we'd be seeing the same complaints, but from a different set of parents.

We'll see what happens with the schedules for future NACs - one would hope they don't put DIME or DIWF on Saturday at NAC C. If they do, then it will be reasonable to complain.

Dan

[teacup]

We'll see what happens with the schedules for future NACs - one would hope they don't put DIME or DIWF on Saturday at NAC C. If they do, then it will be reasonable to complain.

Dan

While it is unfortunate that the October and December SAT dates conflict with the October and December NAC's, it is the November one that is the most problematic.

1. This is the only SAT test date offering language listening tests.
2. The number of juniors impacted by the scheduling conflict who will be attending the Div I and cadet events are probably fewer than those attending the junior events in November.

Although moving the Div I ME/WF for NAC C, to a day other than Saturday to remedy the situation, would help a few juniors taking the SAT, it doesn't help those juniors who wanted to take the language listening tests and unfortunately would probably negatively impact a greater number of college and adult fencers.

(Was moving the junior events in November to October ever considered? Although the venue couldn't be changed after the college board changed dates, the USFA did have enough time to move events.)

[dberke]

Here you are too judgmental, don't you think? You feel that there is a substantial improvement and I don't. It would not be the first time that two people have different opinions about something. This does not mean that you are a keen observer of things and I am casual at best. What you and I think is important are different things and issues, and this is why--I hope--we debate.

I suppose we have different definitions of improvement, which is fine. As someone who does a lot of work organizing large tournaments, I've seen many improvements that may not be apparent to others.

In my opinion you ignore the core of the problem which is the lack of responsiveness on the part of the USFA to an issue affecting a segment of its members. I say responsiveness, not solution of the problem which I agree is not an easy one.

No, I think I addressed that - the USFA just doesn't have the resources to respond effectively. I think we both agree that the status quo isn't ideal, but I have yet to hear a proposal that will solve that (unless more staff is hired.)

Plus, everyone's definition of "responsive" will be different. Even if the USFA posted a long explanation of why they made so-and-so decision (for example, why they chose to put JME and JWF on the Saturday of the SAT), I don't think people would be satisfied.

Now every debate should have a time limit or else we are boring the audience. Let's conclude that on the issue of SAT NACs overlap and the way the USFA has handled or not handled the problem, we agree to disagree.

Fair enough, but let's also not try ascribing motive to the USFA's decision on this. That is my main point of contention - people are too quick to assume the worst about their decision making process.

Dan

[teacup]

Now every debate should have a time limit or else we are boring the audience. Let's conclude that on the issue of SAT NACs overlap and the way the USFA has handled or not handled the problem, we agree to disagree.

Oops, forgot time had expired for the debate.

[JEC]

As has been said (and confirmed), the SAT dates were moved after the USFA had picked their dates (and entered into contracts with the venues.) So they can't be faulted for that.

That is correct for NAC-A and NAC-B, but NOT for NAC-C. As Kurt indicated in his reply to my email, USFA decided to go along and book NAC-C AFTER the SAT dates were changed.

[fdad]

The registration deadline is tonight if you want to avoid triple fees.

[teacup]

No repechage.