Stay and Play Article and Discussion

[Craig]

I had a chance to speak with Kurt Aichele at length on the Stay and Play program. Here is the article:

Stay and Play for Fencing

I have more notes that didn't make it into the article but will be in a follow-up piece soon.

Craig

[keith]

Originally Posted by Craig

I had a chance to speak with Kurt Aichele at length on the Stay and Play program. Here is the article:

http://www.fencing.net/news/us-fenci...-and-play.html

I have more notes that didn't make it into the article but will be in a follow-up piece soon.

Craig

Well if I learned nothing else I now know Oklahoma city is tier 1.

(with apologies)


EDIT:

The idea that stay and play is required to attract "better markets" is either slightly disingenuous or utter bollocks depending on how charitable you are being.

If the USFA requires this sort of program to convince markets of economic impact it has significant communication/marketing issues. Wait.......

[dekko]

Craig,

Did Kurt give a reaction to the general reaction to this on fnet? If not, did you ask? If you asked why was his reaction not part of your article? Do you have any intention of another article with Kurt's reactions to our reactions? Did Kurt verbally 'show' any misgivings about this program or is he resolute in the program and refuse to waiver, no pun intended?

It seems as though teams who, very likely, stay 3-4 to a room would want a larger room and this program may actually be a service to a team sport. Coaches who need to watch after 20 or so team members and play chaperone will benefit from everyone in the same place and hallway or corner of a hotel. However, when a fencer, or anyone in an individual sport, who stays in a room by themselves or likely one other person and need a smaller room.

While this program may apply well to a team sport it doesn't translate to well to the individual sport we all enjoy.

Just curious, where were the rest of the officers/BOD/EC when this came up? Was there anyone who said this might not fly over too well? Or, is this something Kurt wanted to do, suggested to everyone else and had comments to its possible issues and problems with the membership and decide to move forwafrd anyway without further discussion? I can accept that Kurt is new to fencing and has to learn the individual mindset and would accept advice from those in fencing longer. However, if this is something he decided to implement despite the objections of the officers/BOD/EC then he has gone loose cannon and needs to be controlled before he blows another hole in the deck. Either way either he or the officers/BOD/EC have some serious explaining to do.

[keith]

My apologies for my earlier disparaging remarks.

It failed to occur to me that if S&P increased the average cost of a room, of course cities would be more enthusiastic about hosting the USFA.

[seak]

Originally Posted by keith

The idea that stay and play is required to attract "better markets" is either slightly disingenuous or utter bollocks depending on how charitable you are being.

Shrug, I did a bit of investigating a while back into the cost of a NAC in Baltimore. One thing I managed to learn is that if you can guarantee a certain number of hotel rooms you can get the venue for significantly less. I do not remember the exact number but it was high.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by dekko

Just curious, where were the rest of the officers/BOD/EC when this came up? Was there anyone who said this might not fly over too well?

According to oso97, there was (and remains) some skepticism.

I agree that this is something that the Board should be making the final decision on. Not just making a recommendation.

Because, it's going to piss a fair amount of people off. A great deal. Now, conversely, raising fees or dues would piss a lot more people off--but probably not to nearly the same extent.

If the Board is making the call, after hearing the outcry here (and directly)...fair enough. That's their job, to make these kinds of decisions.

On a tangential note, I thought the discussion of waivers ducked the issue.

--Philistine

[darius]

"I questioned THS's ability to deliver so that we made sure it was a soft rollout." He went on to state that he wants to see a 95% or higher satisfaction rating and that that rating is determined by taking the number of complaints and dividing that by the total number of customers served by THS at the event(s).

Here's where your "soft rollout" hurts -- the people who already have been burned by THS will stay somewhere else. They will not complain, because they're happily staying somewhere else, not mandated by anybody. In effect those fencers are being cut out of the conversation.

darius

[keith]

Originally Posted by seak

Shrug, I did a bit of investigating a while back into the cost of a NAC in Baltimore. One thing I managed to learn is that if you can guarantee a certain number of hotel rooms you can get the venue for significantly less. I do not remember the exact number but it was high.

Absolutely, regardless of what you are organising the only thing that matters is the numbers.

Of course pretty much every professional body or sporting organisation (other than fencing & volleyball) manages these negotiations using prior year figures. The USFA has how many years of attendance data?

The THS deal, as described, does not guarantee a fixed number of rooms to a given hotel. Nor does it guarantee a minimum number of attendees. So it is hard to see exactly how it benefits those negotiations.

[edew]

Originally Posted by seak

Shrug, I did a bit of investigating a while back into the cost of a NAC in Baltimore. One thing I managed to learn is that if you can guarantee a certain number of hotel rooms you can get the venue for significantly less. I do not remember the exact number but it was high.

Convention Centers are built by the city for the benefit of local businesses (even though the higher-end hotels are hardly local businesses). The hotels get customers when there are people attending conventions at the convention center. The city charges a hotel tax which pays for the upkeep and maintenance on the convention center (and, hopefully, provide enough revenue to pay for other local expenses, fire, police, city manager, etc).

Since the convention center itself is not there as a for-profit entity, they're happy to negotiate a reasonable rate to prospective attendees, provided that the attendees can bring in the bux. Bottom line is how much money will go to the local economy. For a 10-day Summer Nationals, I'm guessing the greater local economy (greater in the sense that it includes the hotels and perhaps the airlines, which aren't necessarily local) earns about $8 - 10 million.

That $8million is a good jolt to the local economy. Restaurants and shops are happy. Hotels are happy because they're otherwise empty. The convention center is sunk cost, so regardless of whether it's used or not, the money's spent on it, so if it can be used, it's great.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by darius

Here's where your "soft rollout" hurts -- the people who already have been burned by THS will stay somewhere else. They will not complain, because they're happily staying somewhere else, not mandated by anybody. In effect those fencers are being cut out of the conversation.

darius

Darius,

That's why I think everyone should at least do the first part of the process and see what THS is offering, then go and research their own hotel and see if THS will match.

Heck, I'll even have Fencing.Net book a night using Priceline or Orbitz and see if THS will match it for the fencers and publish Fencing.Net's results as part of the THS report card.

What would you all think of that?

I see the potential for Stay and Play if implemented correctly. In my prior corporate life I worked on projects where our profitability was tied to how many units we could prove WE (our company) moved. Stay and Play is the same thing. With it, the USFA can prove how much hotel money is coming in for the NAC and use that in negotiations. Without it, expect nothing to change about NAC costs.

Craig

[keith]

Originally Posted by Craig

Heck, I'll even have Fencing.Net book a night using Priceline or Orbitz and see if THS will match it for the fencers and publish Fencing.Net's results as part of the THS report card.

AIUI, from the volley ball FAQ, it is only public rates that count (not AARP, AAA) that would also probably remove Priceline or Orbitz. This should be something that is known from the terms of service. No need for a got ya web experiment.

Originally Posted by Craig

I see the potential for Stay and Play if implemented correctly. In my prior corporate life I worked on projects where our profitability was tied to how many units we could prove WE (our company) moved. Stay and Play is the same thing. With it, the USFA can prove how much hotel money is coming in for the NAC and use that in negotiations. Without it, expect nothing to change about NAC costs.

Sorry, but every organisation that runs conferences has this problem and all bar two seem to manage without this sort of arrangement.

Depending on the matching arrangement it is perfectly possible for THS to promise;

Current USFA users of THS will see a price drop with S&P.

Host cities will see an increase in the average room charge.


For some reason this is really pissing me off, god knows why

[DonnaP]

Originally Posted by Craig

I had a chance to speak with Kurt Aichele at length on the Stay and Play program. Here is the article:

Stay and Play for Fencing

I have more notes that didn't make it into the article but will be in a follow-up piece soon.

Craig

Craig,

Thank you for the nicely written article which helps to answer some, albeit not all, of the many questions and concerns posted here and being discussed in clubs. I will reiterate only this one final time - why is it that your web site/article offers more clarity and insight into the program that our own USFA web site does?? If USFA would be proactive in putting out clear and concise info, much of the emotional responses could be minimized - but as it often sadly seems, information comes late and incomplete. If the USFA is feeling the backlash of negativity and knee-jerk reactions, it is their own fault. This program has gotten off to a terrible start due to poor managment implementation. Managing change is a freshman 101 class in managment......

[flechewounds]

Originally Posted by DonnaP

Managing change is a freshman 101 class in managment......

Which MBA class covers "chainging managers?"

[occasionalfencer]

Originally Posted by DonnaP

Craig,

Thank you for the nicely written article which helps to answer some, albeit not all, of the many questions and concerns posted here and being discussed in clubs. I will reiterate only this one final time - why is it that your web site/article offers more clarity and insight into the program that our own USFA web site does??

Yes. That. I was scolded a couple of times for referring to the post that started all this as a "leak". Since there has still NOT been any official communication from the USFA which contains anywhere near the clarity of this discussion, I stand by that. I appreciate what Craig has done. I do not appreciate that it was/ is necessary.

A couple of years ago I realized that I learned more about what is going on in the USFA by reading fnet than by reading the official USFA website, or waiting for official emails, or reading the magazine. I am immensely grateful for the information value of what I read here, in spite of the fact that often I have to wade through posts of dubious information value. It is still the best information source around.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by DonnaP

I will reiterate only this one final time - why is it that your web site/article offers more clarity and insight into the program that our own USFA web site does??

Craig is "the media" for the US fencing community. Why do politicians or business' talk at all about embarrassing or controversial things? Because the media keeps them honestish through their reporting. Craig is fencing's Bob Woodward.

[Craig]

Cville asked a good question about minors, which I had failed to ask in my discussion with Kurt. I sent off a question to Christine and here is the reply:

If they are staying with a coach because the athletes are minors, they would submit a Waiver but I want to confirm this with Kurt - this is a good question as it pertains to minors. We will post the hotels and rates for this upcoming season on our website. Kurt's description of the soft roll out is correct.

One of the reasons I enjoy working for US Fencing is because of the intelligent and passionate community. I am not surprised that the Membership has questions or that they want to let the National Office to know how this program affects them.

Also, I learned that some people have chosen to express their displeasure by sending profanity-laced emails to USFA staff. That is unbusinesslike and not a way to get your voice heard/taken seriously.

Craig

[pillow]

Originally Posted by Craig

Cville asked a good question about minors, which I had failed to ask in my discussion with Kurt. I sent off a question to Christine and here is the reply:



Also, I learned that some people have chosen to express their displeasure by sending profanity-laced emails to USFA staff. That is unbusinesslike and not a way to get your voice heard/taken seriously.

Craig

I'm sure this was asked or covered, but due to the repetitive threads I may have missed the answer---what do all those fencers/families do if they wish to use their "hotel points"--Hilton, Westin, etc?--does this need a waiver? Or if it is not grounds for a waiver, is that not unfair to those who can save lots of money by using points?

Also, what does a fencer do first--register for the NAC, or reserve the room with THS?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

One question that came to mind as I read this concerns the availability of rooms in the different price ranges.

If THS offers a price range of $59-$109...what is the expected distribution of rooms across the bracket? If they only have 10 rooms at $59 and a thousand at $109, it's not much of a choice.

[occasionalfencer]

Originally Posted by Craig

Cville asked a good question about minors, which I had failed to ask in my discussion with Kurt. I sent off a question to Christine and here is the reply:



Also, I learned that some people have chosen to express their displeasure by sending profanity-laced emails to USFA staff. That is unbusinesslike and not a way to get your voice heard/taken seriously.

Craig

Two different issues here: people should not send profanity laced, or threatening, emails whether privately or to a business. But if the business is trying to find out what the customer wants, they need to take these communications seriously, because they do express emotion. Unfortunately, it is simply a part of our society that many people consider such forms of communication acceptable. I do not have to pay attention to anyone trying to address me personally in such a distasteful manner, but if the business (the USFA) really cares about the members, they will treat even the bad mannered as expressing something worth hearing.

This is not meant in any way to condone such behavior, just to put it in perspective.

[VorpalCat]

Originally Posted by pillow

I'm sure this was asked or covered, but due to the repetitive threads I may have missed the answer---what do all those fencers/families do if they wish to use their "hotel points"--Hilton, Westin, etc?--does this need a waiver? Or if it is not grounds for a waiver, is that not unfair to those who can save lots of money by using points?

Points are a valid reason to submit a waiver per the overview slide presentation. Keep in mind, the waiver form they show is a sample, not the 'thou shalt use or else' version -- yet.