Stay and Play Article and Discussion

[flechewounds]

Also, I learned that some people have chosen to express their displeasure by sending profanity-laced emails to USFA staff. That is unbusinesslike and not a way to get your voice heard/taken seriously.

Craig

Agreed - I don't tend to send emails that way - but I also think that it is rather a cop-out to focus on the expression of anger as a reason to ignore the anger. It's an old trick - be polite and we'll listen to you... and eventually you'll go away. Be angry and we'll ignore you - citing decorum.

What particularly upsets me about this is Kurt's attempt to trade on the large reserve of goodwill that Christine built up over the years. Kurt is silent - delegating this to Christine. Sorry, but Kurt needs to get in the dialog directly and feel some of the heat, not send out his sacrificial lambs to do.

I would gladly have a recorded debate/discussion with Kurt on F-net about this. Craig - you moderate - ask the questions - and let us debate the issues. Point-Counterpoint... post it on F-net. Transcribe it. Put it on iTunes. I promise decorum and no expletives - you won't have to "beep" out any of it.

But it has to be Kurt - he can't skate above this dog-pile with a smile and an aw-shucks.

[Phincer]

Flechewounds:

I would gladly have a recorded debate/discussion with Kurt on F-net about this. Craig - you moderate - ask the questions - and let us debate the issues. Point-Counterpoint... post it on F-net. Transcribe it. Put it on iTunes. I promise decorum and no expletives - you won't have to "beep" out any of it.

Have been sitting silent but have to say this is an excellent idea.

We've booked through THS with awful results. Our volleyball friends hate it.

If this is Kurt's idea (even if THS proposed it) and he backs it, he should defend it.

And he needs to realize that f.net is our "paper". He might want to read it every day. Might learn something about fencers and fencing.

[TooLoftheDeviL]

And he needs to realize that f.net is our "paper". He might want to read it every day. Might learn something about fencers and fencing.

What makes you think he doesn't?

[Philistine]

What makes you think he doesn't?

This:

I'm fairly certain that he does not read FNet, although some staff members do, at least on occasion.

--Philistine

[Inquartata]

In my prior corporate life I worked on projects where our profitability was tied to how many units we could prove WE (our company) moved. Stay and Play is the same thing.

With respect, Craig, it's not the same thing at ALL. We are not "units". We are people, each with free will, differing tastes and constraints. We are, in short, the customers----not the product...

[keith]

With respect, Craig, it's not the same thing at ALL. We are not "units". We are people, each with free will, differing tastes and constraints. We are, in short, the customers----not the product...

Doesn't it really smart to suddenly find yourself on the wrong side of that economic line

[TooLoftheDeviL]

This:


--Philistine

Fair. My point was more targeted towards the "paper' part than the reading the forums every day part, but my post was done in a hurry before I left the office.

In that vein, if Mr. Aichele did not consider us a valid media source, it would be highly unlikely that he would have taken questions from Craig in an interview format at all. In my opinion, he is more than willing to address the concerns of the membership as put forward by the posts on these boards.

This does not, by any means, even remotely to any sane reader, translate to being equivalent to being held responsible for one on one debate with Mr. Zeiss for this reason, or any other for that matter. It's the downright absurdity like calling out the executive director to some sort of showdown that does damage to the cause of recruiting more competent high profile athletes, coaches, officials, etc to participate.

It only contributes to decision makers dismissing the valid points made here. It makes this place seem like more of a joke than a community of informed participants.

[Inquartata]

Doesn't it really smart to suddenly find yourself on the wrong side of that economic line

What ARE you talking about?

[peet]

With respect, Craig, it's not the same thing at ALL. We are not "units". We are people, each with free will, differing tastes and constraints. We are, in short, the customers----not the product...

I think the "units" Craig was referring to in this context were the hotel rooms, not the fencers.

[flechewounds]

In my opinion, he is more than willing to address the concerns of the membership as put forward by the posts on these boards.

If you can show me evidence of that, I'd be very happy. I don't agree that there has been a willingness on the part of anyone in the EDs office to discuss this.

This does not, by any means, even remotely to any sane reader, translate to being equivalent to being held responsible for one on one debate with Mr. Zeiss for this reason, or any other for that matter. It's the downright absurdity like calling out the executive director to some sort of showdown that does damage to the cause of recruiting more competent high profile athletes, coaches, officials, etc to participate.

I'm not calling anyone down for a Showdown at the OK Corral. In fact, what I was offering also represents a personal risk to me - note that I'm not delegating my responses to another person. Certainly, Kurt may have reasonable, or even great, answers to the issues that have been raised. But, so far, we haven't received those answers.

Listen, I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I'm the only one with a brain here... but based on the facts presented by me and others, I do believe that there is sufficient controversy regarding this that an open, true dialog is reasonable. I'm willing to make myself the sacrificial lamb for such a dialog. I know that if I was in his position and thought this program was important - I'd attempt to get people on board - particularly the harshest critics.

I'm not making idle chatter, either. Remember, I took over the Pacific Coast Section in very difficult straits - and had plenty of discussions regarding many difficult issues that we faced. There wasn't always consensus, but there was always respect and dialog.

It only contributes to decision makers dismissing the valid points made here. It makes this place seem like more of a joke than a community of informed participants.

I agree - asking decision makers to openly discuss extremely controversial decisions before they are finalized does make them want to make controversial decisions in the dark. It is so much easier to get what you want that way. If you can get the members to close their eyes, they'll tolerate anything...

I did not vote for an EC slate with the intent or desire to have them or their appointed chieftain expand their authority into aspects of my life that are wholly unrelated to sports performance. I elected them so that they would properly manage the area within their authority. I get the feeling that many others (even on the board) feel similarly.

So yes, I would like to ask Kurt how and why he thinks that he (and the USFA) have the authority to go beyond their charter and intrude into the personal lives of our athletes and their families. Does he have a mandate? Is doing so within his (or the USFA's) authority? I want to ask him that to his face. I want everyone in the membership to hear the answer. Period.

It takes true leadership to stand up for one's own decisions and be proud and secure enough in them to be willing to discuss them openly with their critics. If Kurt wants to be a true leader - it is time for him to step up to the plate and do just that.

[Dad02]

Cville asked a good question about minors, which I had failed to ask in my discussion with Kurt. I sent off a question to Christine and here is the reply:

If they are staying with a coach because the athletes are minors, they would submit a Waiver but I want to confirm this with Kurt - this is a good question as it pertains to minors. We will post the hotels and rates for this upcoming season on our website. Kurt's description of the soft roll out is correct.

Craig

I've never posted before, and am a father of two fencers. This issue has me quite concerned as it relates to minors.

So doing a quick back of the envelope computation, there were more than 1500 underaged fencers at NACs, JOs or SN just in ME last year who cannot have a reservation at a hotel in their name. And I did not try to estimate those who also fenced Div I, II or III. I only counted 80% of entries at the Junior events, but it might be more or less. I don't know how the weapons and genders are divided, but by multiplying that 1500 by all 6 weapons/genders, we get 9000. Let's take 80% of this number to deal with discrepancies in event sizes across the categories. We still have 7200 waivers.

[pillow]

I've never posted before, and am a father of two fencers. This issue has me quite concerned as it relates to minors.

So doing a quick back of the envelope computation, there were more than 1500 underaged fencers at NACs, JOs or SN just in ME last year who cannot have a reservation at a hotel in their name. And I did not try to estimate those who also fenced Div I, II or III. I only counted 80% of entries at the Junior events, but it might be more or less. I don't know how the weapons and genders are divided, but by multiplying that 1500 by all 6 weapons/genders, we get 9000. Let's take 80% of this number to deal with discrepancies in event sizes across the categories. We still have 7200 waivers.

Roy Scheider in Jaws:" We're gonna need a bigger fax machine."

[jimbro]

1. THS is a business - (The THS Company, LLC). It is not registered as a non-profit. It therefore has a fiduciary duty to make money.

2. It can make money in one of two ways: kickbacks from hotels for steering business to them, or by charging fees to fencers or others who use it.

3. Hotels that do business with THS hope that the increased volume they get from THS will cover the fees they pay, at the same time that THS (we hope) is pressuring them for a discount.

PREDICTIONS:
1. Year 1-2 of use: Modest 10-15% hotel booking discount to Fencers who use THS. The size of this discount will not be significantly greater than that available by individuals booking and using other available discounts (AARP, AAA, Hotel & Travel Card points).

2. Year 3 of use: Discounts disappear (but are hidden: Discounts are reported, but on artifically inflated quotes). Those of us who have real experience in the hotel industry know that creative bookkeeping within the industry is rivaled only by Hollywood.

3. To maintain the captive market, THS will be motivated to offer special "things" to the decision makers. This will probably NOT be anything illegal, but temptations do have the tendancy to cloud the judgement of even honorable people.

[flechewounds]

2. Year 3 of use: Discounts disappear (but are hidden: Discounts are reported, but on artifically inflated quotes). Those of us who have real experience in the hotel industry know that creative bookkeeping within the industry is rivaled only by Hollywood.

As a resident of Hollywood, California, I resemble that remark.

[chrisfencing]

I'm sure this was asked or covered, but due to the repetitive threads I may have missed the answer---what do all those fencers/families do if they wish to use their "hotel points"--Hilton, Westin, etc?--does this need a waiver? Or if it is not grounds for a waiver, is that not unfair to those who can save lots of money by using points?

And mind you, Hilton only gives points for bookings made through their website or phone center. In other words, THS users won't earn Hilton points.

I don't know how strict other hotel chains are about this.

[Spidermonkey]

A few questions on the whole THS scheme:

How is this going to work? Do you need to book a room before you register an to fence at a NAC? Do both at the same time and hope that everything works out in the end.

How is this going to be enforceable? Are we going to have to provide the names of all the fencers staying with us in a room? If there going to be a waiver if I am planning in staying in the area for extra time and want a room away from the convention center so I don't have to switch hotels after the event? My guess is that fencers will just start a new hobby of finding ways to get out of using THS. The local fencer will just lend his address to a bunch of new "friends" so they can fill out the waiver.

[fdad]

There are just so many problems with this scheme. IANAL, but ... It seems like in order for it work work as described, a set of organizations would need to conspire to invade an individual's (frequently a minor) privacy. If I book a room with a hotel, I do not give them the right to share that fact with any other person or organization (usually they only know the name of the person booking the room, not additional occupants AKA minor fencers). The USFA does not have the right to share anything I put into a waiver request with either THS or any hotel, including the one I claim to be staying at. Even THS does not have the right to tell USFA where I (or my child) is planning to spend the night. I cannot see how this could withstand a legal challenge, but if it did the cost associated with protecting this extremely sensitive personal data (where can a predator find a collection of young children?) collected by USFA and THS seems prohibitive (USFA and THS would likely need to pay for extensive background checks for anyone with access).

[Inquartata]

I think the "units" Craig was referring to in this context were the hotel rooms, not the fencers.

Even if so, the USFA is not in the business of producing hotel room stays. So it's still not the same thing as "our profitability was tied to how many units we could prove WE (our company) moved". For THS, sure, but who cares about their interests in this?

For the USFA, a fencing NGB, the "units" are fencers. Or, arguably, international medals. I don't see how they "move" more of either with S&P.

[keith]

Even if so, the USFA is not in the business of producing hotel room stays. So it's still not the same thing as "our profitability was tied to how many units we could prove WE (our company) moved". For THS, sure, but who cares about their interests in this?

Of course the idea that S&P is required to prove numbers has been debunked;

According to one source, Oklahoma City was not interested in putting in a bid for a USFA NAC, but when they heard that the USFA may be going to Stay and Play, they were interested.

There is no S&P data yet, and even the wildest boosters of the scheme are not claiming it will lead to more entries. This raises the curious question; if S&P is not required to prove historical impact what is it about the scheme that suddenly has cities chomping at the bit to get NACs?

[fdad]

Of course the idea that S&P is required to prove numbers has been debunked;



There is no S&P data yet, and even the wildest boosters of the scheme are not claiming it will lead to more entries; this raises the curious question if S&P is not required to prove historical impact what is it about the scheme that suddenly has cities chomping at the bit to get NACs?

Does Oklahoma City count as a city?