"ManPlate" for coaching hand?

[griffindm]

I've recently been getting a lot of bruising during epee lessons on the back of my weapon hand. Obviously I don't want to discourage students hitting it. I was curious if anyone has found or made some sort of flexible armor for the back of the hand for protection during lessons.

Thanks

[SJCFU#2]

Sounds like a good use for one of Purple Fencer's Armor Two gloves.

Another possibility might be to fashion something out of light plastic to fit over the back of your hand (either inside of your glove if there's room, or taped to the outside if not). Maybe try cutting a piece from a plastic milk jug, heating it with a hair dryer and then molding it into shape.

If nothing else works then pm me - I think that I may have some heavy leather scrapes somewhere upstairs that you might be able to add to the back of your glove

[Allen Evans]

Ummm....why is the hand getting hit that hard?

[griffindm]

Ummm....why is the hand getting hit that hard?

Allen,

Interesting question. I wear an Absolute coaching glove, covered entirely by an older Triplette suede oversleeve. Been using it for over a decade. Used a Santelli coaching jacket before that. Rarely had an issue with the back of the hand, but recently I've had issues with breaking veins, even through the protection. Probably a health issue (I'm almost 55 now) and not a flaw in the equipment. I do a lot of work on small shallow (hand) disengages to 6 and beat attacks to 6, which become knuckle hits when done right, or back of the hand if done a little wider/slower. Usually as a setup to something deeper, but still I take a lot of hits there.

Craig - I was thinking about crafting something like that, but given the fact that I am taking injury through fairly thick leather now, I think it would have to be plastic somewhat stiffer than from a milk jug. I hope to look for some conformal plastic somewhere, the kind of stuff they make custom dive mouthpieces and snoring aids from. That stuff starts soft and hardens after exposure to hot water.

Dave

[MdA]

.......Craig - I was thinking about crafting something like that, but given the fact that I am taking injury through fairly thick leather now, I think it would have to be plastic somewhat stiffer than from a milk jug. I hope to look for some conformal plastic somewhere, the kind of stuff they make custom dive mouthpieces and snoring aids from. That stuff starts soft and hardens after exposure to hot water.

Dave

The problem with plastic armor…IMO…is that it creates an unrealistic target surface…with bounce off effect. This became apparent when using my plastic chest protector for foil lessons in recent years…after the timing change.

The nature of these type hits in epee is that they are supposed to “dig in” to your hand. Plastic insert would make them bounce off and would give you fencer an unrealistic feel.

You may need to go to some type of heavy foam padding…like the kind found in football helmets…but thinner. I constructed a chest protector by cutting up a corset my mother-in-law used after her back surgery…foam padding over flat metal stays…but I imagine this would be pretty expensive at a hospital supply store….I saw what they charged Medicare$$$$$....and you wonder why we have a healthcare crisis!!!!

[Allen Evans]

A cheaper solution might be to simply by an knee or forearm pad and move it to cover the hand. I used something similar to that when I would drill in flicks with my teammates. We would slide it over our arms, tuck it under the bell of our weapon, and we could make some hard hits with little damage.

Probably time to analyse how you're giving the action itself. Are your students getting a bend in the blade when they hit? Are you "pushing" your hand into the hit? Either of these might be signs that the action needs to be modified.

I have been giving lessons without an epee sleeve for some months now, and while I occasionally get hit in the knuckle, I force the students to work the distance such that they get a "click" when they hit and can move on to the next action.

Allen

[Mr Epee]

I have been giving lessons without an epee sleeve for some months now, and while I occasionally get hit in the knuckle, I force the students to work the distance such that they get a "click" when they hit and can move on to the next action.

Allen

WTF?!?!?!?

I'm probably misunderstanding this, but isn't what you are describing a lot like having a skeet coach teaching students to stop the barrel and then pull the trigger?

[Allen Evans]

WTF?!?!?!?

I'm probably misunderstanding this, but isn't what you are describing a lot like having a skeet coach teaching students to stop the barrel and then pull the trigger?

I think you're misunderstanding, probably because I worded it poorly.

What I'm hinting at is that griffendm may be asking for a hit that's too close, with a big bend in the blade as the hit "catches" on the sleeve around the hand. Being this close (thus getting a hard hit) may be contributing to his discomfort.

On the advance of Michael Marx, I've stopped giving most of my epee lessons with a sleeve on (I make exceptions for certain actions -- like flicks -- and certain students). I'm still asking for a solid hit, just not one that bends the blade in a big arc and forces the student into a second action to "undig" the weapon from the sleeve before making the next action.

I agree with Michael that this makes the epee actions a lot more realistic, doesn't train a micro-response to "unstick" the weapon for subsequent actions, and doesn't let the student cheat on the distance so much, since a sleeve "grabs" an epee point pretty easily no matter what distance or angle the student is hitting at.

[Mr Epee]

With all due respect to M. Marx - and his personal accomplishments as a foilist... take that as you will.

I can assure everyone reading that eschewing the sleeve by an epee coach is a TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, NO GOOD VERY BAD (credit: Judith Viorst) idea.

If for no other reason, there is the question of your personal longevity as a coach. In a single lesson you are dealing with, literally, hundreds of hits to the arm. I don't care how 'sissy' the hits are... this is not good personal policy. period. Especially, considering that a typical evening involves multiple lessons with students of varying ability and control.

Please... don't do this.

[griffindm]

What I'm hinting at is that griffindm may be asking for a hit that's too close, with a big bend in the blade as the hit "catches" on the sleeve around the hand.

Allen,

Not the case. Small bends only. Longer distances involved. 1/2 to 2/3 lunges, so the student can "spring back" (back foot first) from the attack as required.

I can concur with Mr. Marx (I remember Michael from my NCAA championship days back in the '70's) about the ease of the student catching the blade on the sleeve compared to without, but I would agree more that, over the life span of the coach, the sleeve makes much more sense.

Dave

[Mr Epee]

I can concur with Mr. Marx (I remember Michael from my NCAA championship days back in the '70's) about the ease of the student catching the blade on the sleeve compared to without,

Dave

Additionally, I, as former elite lesson taker, can assure everyone that a little attention to technique - on the part of the student - can practically eliminate almost all unrealistic hang-ups on the coaching equipment.

Trust me, when a world class epee coach is running you up and down the strip, you quickly master the ability of not having your equipment stuck in their padding.

PLUS... don't underestimate the role of solid blade bending during a lesson in the the development of feeling for the blade and actions, in general.

[Allen Evans]

All good points, and points well taken.

I may continue to experiment with the option of not using a sleeve for a little while longer, however.

AE

ps - didn't Michael have some success also as an epee fencer and epee coach? That's not the only standard to judge his advice by, but I'm not sure I'd readily dismiss his logic, though both of you make good cases for the use of the sleeve.

[Mr Epee]

didn't Michael have some success also as an epee fencer and epee coach?

As a fencer: All things considered, not really. Although I guess opportunists should get some credit for their vision.

As a coach: I guess he's a pretty good Women's Epee coach... see above re: opportunist tendencies.

My impressions are my opinions -- they are what they are. ;-)

[griffindm]

The problem with plastic armor…IMO…is that it creates an unrealistic target surface…with bounce off effect. This became apparent when using my plastic chest protector for foil lessons in recent years…after the timing change.

MdA,

Do they really feel the plate under the coaching jacket? I'm surprised. The jackets I've always used (mostly for epee) are too thick for most students to know a plate is in use. If I can get this thin enough to fit under the glove, the students should really be oblivious to it, as it will be beneath glove AND the leather over-sleeve. I need to keep it short enough to not reach too close to the knuckles, as I do NOT want to trap a point there with it.

I've found an interesting substance, [Friendly Plastics], which are pellets you can heat an mold to any shape you want. They hold their shape to about 140 degrees F, which should be good enough if I keep them out of the hot sun, and seem rigid enough to do the job. I may use it on another fencing project as well, so it is worth getting some to try it. I'm thinking a small curved plate to fit the back of the hand with slots to attach a velcro strap.

I'll update the thread when I have given it a try.

Dave

[darius]

I wondered about those nasty bicep hits too, but if you take the next part of Michael's thinking - behave realistically, you're generally extending your arm to counterattack, so it's rare that you get those truly nasty arm shots which stick.

Clearly there are quality epee coaches who use varying amounts of protection - Michael is hardly the only person in the world who eschews the sleeve for that reason.

As a coach: I guess he's a pretty good Women's Epee coach...

I could have sworn his last Olympian was a guy. But we're entitled to our opinions.

darius

[foibles]

Would this be an example of excessive bend for a coached epee hand hit?

[griffindm]

Would this be an example of excessive bend for a coached epee hand hit?

What I find interesting in that pix is that neither side is in a lunge, yet the blade is extremely bent. Only thing I can think of it both stepped in, or the action started really close. :P

[VorpalCat]

What I find interesting in that pix is that neither side is in a lunge, yet the blade is extremely bent. Only thing I can think of it both stepped in, or the action started really close. :P

'Shopped or posed are likely options as well -- doesn't have to be a live-action capture for that image's use. Don't overthink it!

[Goldgar]

I can assure everyone reading that eschewing the sleeve by an epee coach is a TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, NO GOOD VERY BAD (credit: Judith Viorst) idea.

Except in Australia.

[Inquartata]

Do they really feel the plate under the coaching jacket? I'm surprised. The jackets I've always used (mostly for epee) are too thick for most students to know a plate is in use. If I can get this thin enough to fit under the glove, the students should really be oblivious to it, as it will be beneath glove AND the leather over-sleeve.

And if they can, and this is a concern, or he wants to wear it on top of everything, he could try something we used to do in the SCA in the old days: a piece of carpeting. The pile will give enough yield that points won't skitter off as they would from, say, Kydex, and I guarantee that he will NOT feel the hits through it...